Master strikes

[Stevie T]

You don't mind to elaborate on that comment of yours, do you?

Gain the Initiative, maintain the Initiative and push the Initiative

I just thought you came across very forcefully and direct in your reply, a German trait I understand

Steve

[Jörg B.]

OK, understood!

Sorry, but it's an extremely shitty day here at work, so I might be a bit short-fused.

But as Matt will attest, humor isn't my strong side anyway; I'm German after all.

[Stevie T]

OK, understood!

Sorry, but it's an extremely shitty day here at work, so I might be a bit short-fused.

But as Matt will attest, humor isn't my strong side anyway; I'm German after all.

I meant no offence but have a distinct habit of offending without meaning to; I am English after all.

[Jörg B.]

I guess that's Ok, then!

[philippe willaume]

Yes that is true.
Why can't you be all nice like me?

[Stevie T]

Cool emoticon!

[Jörg B.]

Cool emoticon!

Bollocks! didn't work trying to quote it!

It does work, you just deleted the [img] at the beginning.

[Stevie T]

Ah

I'll be the one falling over, after the first swig!

[Abomination]

Yes that is true.
Why can't you be all nice like me?

Git

[philippe willaume]

Yes that is true.
Why can't you be all nice like me?

Git

ts ts ts

Remember “Il pranceadori maximus” said to be polite, so it is monsieur Git to you.

Just to avoid another shot across the bow.
Any body had any luck with my debunking?


philippe

[Jeff Gentry]

Philippe

I have not realy looked yet i will tonight or tommorrow just for my own benefit, there are a few good point's in this discussion about the zornhau.

I have few of my own idea's about the Hidden strike's i just haven't posted my opinion's.

Jeff

[Herbert]

Just to clarify the discussion a little bit - the one about the Zornhau, not the one about the emoticon...

We have:
- Zornhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path
- Oberhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path

Question is: where do they end? Where is the difference? Only source we have that explicetly states something is the very late Meyer which doesn't help a lot since names have evolved a bit.

I personally use a Zornhau to denote an Oberhau that ends in the Hängen.
Everything else is an Oberhau to me.

What are your viewpoints, just to clarify.

Interesting discussion though!

Herbert

[Andreas Engström]

Just to clarify the discussion a little bit - the one about the Zornhau, not the one about the emoticon...

We have:
- Zornhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path
- Oberhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path

Question is: where do they end? Where is the difference? Only source we have that explicetly states something is the very late Meyer which doesn't help a lot since names have evolved a bit.

I personally use a Zornhau to denote an Oberhau that ends in the Hängen.
Everything else is an Oberhau to me.

What are your viewpoints, just to clarify.

Interesting discussion though!

Herbert

That is more or less my opinion as well. Though an Oberhau would IMHO not have to start from the right shoulder to be called an Oberhau. You can start an Oberhau from almost any position, even a tail guard (Nebenhut), and end in a variety of positions. A Zornhau, on the other hand, should start from Vom Tag at the right shoulder (if you're right-handed) and end in a position that threatens the opponent with the tip (that is, if said tip isn't already buried in his skull or throat, in which case you might say he's still threatened by it).

All in my personal opinion, of course.

-Engström

[Herbert]

Sorry, an Oberhau can be started from almost anywhere of course. Thanks for clarifying.

Herbert

[Stevie T]

Could a Zornhau not be struck from different gaurds, Ringeck et al telling us the best place to do this from is the shoulder. The main difference being that where with an Oberhau you refind your own line with distance and the Zornhau you move to the opponents line closing distance, and ensuring the point still threatens.

I have no knowledge of sword and buckler technique and am working from longsword only, but would envisage the same principles apply.

Also working from very limited knowledge, so feel free to just tell to be quite

Steve

[philippe willaume]

Hello
I am of the same opinion as Herbert and Andreas.
Every thing is either and uber or unterhaw, where you end up defines what masterhaw it is.

Stevie
I think your question need to be qualified as to what author it applies.
I am a big Ringecks fan so it taints my views but. (and that is why I think Joerg has a point in a Meyer view of the world)

So strictly speaking a Zornhau can only be stuck from Von tag.
But remember that for Ringeck (and vd) you do not need to have von tag over the head but the blade over the shoulder will be enough (i.e. you can keep the hilt below the shoulder as in the Vd picture.)
And it is only used as a counter; you do not attack with a zornhau. (The 4 other masttrehaw are more adapted to break the positions.

It is all well and good but Now what happen if you need to use a zornhau and you are in the plough?
2 great options either we let him go by.
He need to extend a bit to hit you so you can take a quick a nasty VT at the beginning of the move fro you to strike. (Using the 2nd narchraisen principles)

Or you go against him
So we do not use VT but in that case we are in the case of zornott. (For all intent and purpose ending up as if we had struck a zorn and be ready to thrust.) So we end up in a zorn-before-the-thrust without striking a zorn at all. Which is really a cheeky way to go around the striking only from the VT, as stricto sensus it is not a zorn proper (but it does taste like one).
(Not that different from the first absetsen so the mechanic and the reason why you do it are slightly dissimilar)

[Herbert]

I just remembered...

In Vienna I did continue with a little project of mine: Collecting Zornhaus. I asked a lot of people to do a simple Zornhau for me. Most interesting what I saw. Most differed a little bit. Jörg was the only one who asked me in return: "A Zornhau? Sure, do you want 15th or 16th century?"

I think Jörg was right then. We should maybe start to put a time bracket on the Zornhau we are discussing. Just as the guards have evolved so maybe some Meisterhäue have. So are we talking about an early Zornhau or a later one?

Herbert

[Randall Pleasant]

We have:
- Zornhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path
- Oberhau: done from the right shoulder, might reach out on the path

Question is: where do they end? Where is the difference? Only source we have that explicetly states something is the very late Meyer which doesn't help a lot since names have evolved a bit.

I personally use a Zornhau to denote an Oberhau that ends in the Hängen.
Everything else is an Oberhau to me.

What are your viewpoints, just to clarify.

Herbert

An Oberhau is any true edge or false edge cut made from above.
A Zornhau is a true edge cut from above. Therefore, a Zornhau is a type of Oberhau.

[philippe willaume]

hello ran
I think we all agree that a zornhau is a subset of the oberhau. And so are the Krump, the zwerch, the sheil and the sheitel for that matter.

What I understood by Herbert message was that for an oberhaw to be called zornhau it needs to have certain particularity that all the possible oberhaw will not have.
I think he meant all oberhaw ar not Zornhau but all the zornhau are oberhaw

It is like wondering if the T-rex was a carnosaur or dinosaur.
It was both; one being a subset of the other but all dinosaurs were not carnosaurs But all the carnosaurs were dinosaurs




Phil

[Herbert]

Exactly Phillipe, exactly.