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Postby scholadays » 12 Jan 2007 10:52

NeilG wrote:Actually, it properly designates the lowest bit of the datotsobu (proper hitting area), anywhere from there to the tip. Correct depth of cut for a men (head) cut is when the tip is at the back of the head, so maybe connecting with the last 6-8" of the blade.

The direct translation of nakayui is "leather tie" or "leather knot", I believe.

Just another kendo drive-by posting...

Thanks Neil, most handy info, as I must confess that I was confused when I saw Kendotypes hitting a little further along the weapon than I was expecting.

Glad to see you still lurking around to keep us straight on Kendo related matters. Ta very much.

So, in Kendo if one cuts one's opponent with the leather tip, does this score, or is this an invalid cut?
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Postby scholadays » 12 Jan 2007 11:12

Always keen am I to provide my charges with a little extra material to mull over between classes. Last night, whilst boozing infront of the telly, I decided to recommend the extremely informative, exciting and insightful sword fighting movie 'Strictly Ballroom'.

Yes yes, Johnny Public may very well be under the impression that this movie is about events surrrounding the Pan Pacific Ballroom Dancing Final, but this is obviously a metaphor for swordplay.

It's all there, laid out before you.

Study this movie most carefully.
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Postby NeilG » 12 Jan 2007 21:51

scholadays wrote:So, in Kendo if one cuts one's opponent with the leather tip, does this score, or is this an invalid cut?

Depends on the target. If you hit the men (top of head) or doh (side of body) with just the tip, it should not be a point as the cut is judged too shallow. For tsuki (thrust to the throat), by definition you are hitting with the tip. For kote (wrist) the target is smaller so the tip is probably OK.
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Postby scholadays » 14 Jan 2007 17:53


TRAIN
FRAIN
FIAIN
FIGIN
FIGHN
FIGHT
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Postby scholadays » 14 Jan 2007 18:47

This is a surfer.

Image

He's riding the biggest wave he can. He's beating the odds. He's out on a limb, and the only way home is to tame this monster and ride it back to shore. Swordplay ain't so different. Don't laught, it is. At least the swordplay I prefer to indulge in is - it has to be a little scary or it just ain't worth it. Furthermore, even the biggest of waves isn't trying to beat you. I am, and I suppose when sparring that makes us both the surfer and the wave.

I often look to surfing for inspiration to understand what people get out of the things that they do. Surfing is really rather popular, has a strongly defined culture all of it's own and seems to consume those that indulge in it. Why? If I could understand why then perhaps I could understand my own obsession to only think of swordplay day and night.

Surfing is always described in terms of the surfing. Heroically riding the biggest wave one dares, facing possible death or maiming to gain the exhiliration of beating the odds with only one's board and one's skill. Surfing is always described with reference to the surfing. A romantic ideal carefully edited to include only that moment of freedom.

But what about the waiting? The not surfing? If I understand surfing correctly the majority of the time is spent waiting for that wave. Of course, you and I don't actually see the waiting. This would make for a rather boring spectacle. But it's there and it must be as fulfulling as the surfing to attact those that indulge. Or perhaps at least, all the waiting must make that moment of surfing all the more vivid.

So, what are they doing during all this waiting? A surfer once said he loved to surf off the coast of his home town because from far out to sea he could see where his life took place in one grand eyefull. It seems that from such a distance he could gain some perspective, like an astronaut in orbit he could grasp his whole world between finger and thumb. And a thought occured whilst I listened. Whilst out there on the sea when do such thoughts come to a surfer - where they are crashing towards home on the crest of a wave, or do they come slowly, in the waiting? I suspect the latter.

Where am I going with all this? Well, what about the not swordfighting? What is swordplay all about between those few moments when one indulges in the pleasure of a real live opponent. It occured to me that my swordplay was also all waiting. Waiting for the next bout. Waiting for the next opponent. Waiting for the next victim. And while waiting, training. Is there anything in my training, my waiting, that holds for me some of the pleasures of the fight? Is there anything in the solitude of driling that I find in the solitude of the fight inside my fencing mask?

I suppose it depends. It depends upon the drill. For most of my solo training is drilling, drilling drilling formal repertoire. Constraining one's movements to those that I am worst at, to those that I must improve. To confine oneself to the straightjacket of technique until one gets it right. This does not feel like bouting. For in bouting any premeditation is made on the spur of the moment. Forward planning is spontenous. If you've trained well it's your body that makes all the decisions whilst you are only along for the ride. Formal drilling feels nothing like this to me.

So I changed the drill. I assaulted a tree. At nice steady pace, but allowing my body to choose the repertoire, allowing the momentum of the weapon to lead me into the next posta and on into the next assault. An unpressured flow not through all the repertoire I know, but through all the repertoire I favour. You drive cattle whilst you ride a horse. This was not fighting, but to my surprise part of this felt like fighting, and it felt good.

Something to do for its own sake inbetween waves.
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Postby scholadays » 14 Jan 2007 18:48

And upon rereading the previous post it looks like I'm in danger of becoming Chris In The Evening.

Image

I'll be quoting Walt Whitman before you know it.
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Postby Lady T » 14 Jan 2007 19:53

Tee hee
Deep Gordon.
Well at least now we know you are human under that maniacal drive to maim and kill!
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Postby scholadays » 14 Jan 2007 20:02

Lady T wrote:Tee hee
Deep Gordon...
Image
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Bridge

Postby scholadays » 14 Jan 2007 20:05

I've been trying to build a bridge - a bridge between drilling and sparring. It is not enough for me to simply step through a technique and understand how its component parts work. I need to practise it in situ. First without pressure, then build the pressure up until one is nearly using it against a lusty opposition and without thinking. So we need a progression, and it ocurred to me whilst assaulting that tree that the progression I've been trying to work out can simply be described as a combination of the words drilling/sparring and cooperatively/uncooperatively.

Lets see where this nomenclature takes us...


Cooperative drilling: You know, the period one goes through when trying to understand a techique. The stop-start negotiation one goes through with your partner until you can go through the motions without stumbling. Lots of chat. Lots of pauses. However, once understood I prefer to start the unending circular drill here, and here it looks like a dance. Pattycake, if you prefer.


Uncooperative drilling: But once you've got the basics understood, it's useful to see if you can execute it whilst your partner tries to lay on one you, or tries to prevent you succeeding. Speed is turned up to it's maximum but the repertiore is highly constrained. Everyone know's whats going to happen so success typically goes to the counter. Depite this I still prefer to circulate the drill, but here it looks like a quickdraw contest. A food mixer.


Cooperative sparring: This is the one that was so hidden to me and occured to me whilst hitting a tree. But we used to do this often in my Sport Fencing days. We've turned the drill on its head. We're no longer constrained by the repertoire we are permitted to exploit, but we're not fighting. We're cooperating. Fully. We're doing our best not to be successful but are simply and in a relaxed manner presenting any technique to our partner for them to respond to. Round and round it goes, unstructured, unscripted, sponteneous but cooperative. We're not working up a sweat. Here it looks like a conversation.


Uncooperative sparring: At last we reach our goal. The attempt to successfully exploit repertoire at full speed against an opponent who is not cooperating in the least. This is my wave. This is the beach where I surf.
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Postby Corporal Carrot » 14 Jan 2007 23:11

scholadays wrote:And upon rereading the previous post it looks like I'm in danger of becoming Chris In The Evening.

Image



If that involves building a mighty trebuchet, then I say go for it.
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Postby scholadays » 15 Jan 2007 09:14

Einar Drønnesund wrote:If that involves building a mighty trebuchet, then I say go for it.

Well, I am about to purchase a piano.

Perhaps a good flinging will improve the tone.
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15th January 2007

Postby scholadays » 18 Jan 2007 17:01

I think that I may have melted their brains.

By the end of the session they all sat there looking dispondent. A row of pale, wan faces with the thousand yard stare of those who have been thinking too hard. Good. I'm pleased to have stretched them.

For this evening I decided to structure the meet with reference to my brand new bridge - cooperative drilling, uncoopertive drilling, coopertaive sparring, uncoopertative sparring. I simply used the attacks and covers from the low guards and a basis with which we could work our way through this structure.

And in my opinion it worked nicely. I permitted the stop start negotiation as folk worked out what was required, then encouraged getting into a circular cyclical mode of continuous drilling, then it was masks on and pressure applied, then a step back with a bit of gentle flowing cooperative unstructured play to determine how these techniques fit into their overall personal repertoire before engaging in full on sparring.

And bugger me they liked this bit. With the pressures of competition taken from them all now had the opportunity to try out unfamiliar repertoire that they would never dream of attempting in the barriers.

We will build upon this.
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Postby Paul B » 18 Jan 2007 18:45

This sounds VERY interesting, please keep posting your progress with this teaching method. I would be interested to see the difference in proficiency between those traned in this method, and those not. - both in long and short term.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Paul B » 18 Jan 2007 18:47

god, that was a bit SFItm style.




Muthafuka


There, I feel better now
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Frustration

Postby scholadays » 23 Jan 2007 13:58

Frustration.


That's what I see on some faces. Frustration. This is because I'm not telling them everything they need to know. This is deliberate.

The way I see it I could adopt an approach that lies at either end of two extremes. I could give them everything on a plate. Tell them exactly what they need to know, where their feet should be and when, how their arms should move, every minutiae of movement that they need to execute a drill precisely. They would not be confused. If they listen carefully they will know exactly how I think that their body should move to execute the drill. They will be happy. They will stay.

I was taught Jui Jitsu under such a regime, and I learned nothing.

Alternatively I could give them some slack. I could withhold a certain amount of information and force them to work out how to move their bodies. Give them a broad idea of what is expected, a principle to keep in mind and an objective to achieve. They'll have to work out how to move their bodies themselves and in my opinion they're probably most qualified to do this. But they will be frustrated. This guy's a crap coach. They may leave.

I was taught sport fencing and Kung Fu in this manner, and I remember everything.

For if they are frustrated it is because I'm making them work hard, think hard. I'm leaving them high and dry. I'm cutting them lose and seeing how they get on. I'm permitting them to feel their way.

Feeling frustrated is a good thing.

Or at least, I hope that feeling frustrated is a good thing
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Postby scholadays » 23 Jan 2007 14:05

This is my training partner.
There are many like him, but this one is mine.
I love my training partner,
for he teaches me how to fight with a sword,
as I teach him.
I will neither blind nor kill my training partner.
I will not knock out all of his teeth,
or break all of his fingers.
For without my training partner I will learn nothing more.
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Postby swordflasher » 23 Jan 2007 14:08

I will not knock out all of his teeth,
or break all of his fingers.

:lol:
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Postby Paul B » 23 Jan 2007 16:42

scholadays wrote:Frustration.


That's what I see on some faces. Frustration. This is because I'm not telling them everything they need to know. This is deliberate.

Feeling frustrated is a good thing.

Or at least, I hope that feeling frustrated is a good thing


As long as THEY know that is what you are doing, you should be fine - otherwise they could just think you are a crap teacher and lynch you
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby King Pellinor » 24 Jan 2007 12:57

scholadays wrote:Frustration.

That's what I see on some faces. Frustration. This is because I'm not telling them everything they need to know. This is deliberate.

The way I see it I could adopt an approach that lies at either end of two extremes. I could give them everything on a plate. Tell them exactly what they need to know, where their feet should be and when, how their arms should move, every minutiae of movement that they need to execute a drill precisely. They would not be confused. If they listen carefully they will know exactly how I think that their body should move to execute the drill. They will be happy. They will stay.

I was taught Jui Jitsu under such a regime, and I learned nothing.

Alternatively I could give them some slack. I could withhold a certain amount of information and force them to work out how to move their bodies. Give them a broad idea of what is expected, a principle to keep in mind and an objective to achieve. They'll have to work out how to move their bodies themselves and in my opinion they're probably most qualified to do this. But they will be frustrated. This guy's a crap coach. They may leave.

I was taught sport fencing and Kung Fu in this manner, and I remember everything.

For if they are frustrated it is because I'm making them work hard, think hard. I'm leaving them high and dry. I'm cutting them lose and seeing how they get on. I'm permitting them to feel their way.

Feeling frustrated is a good thing.

Or at least, I hope that feeling frustrated is a good thing


I get exactly this teaching morris dancing. People want to know exactly what they should be doing, and exactly when to turn which way, and so on. This is great, to a point: they're happy, and comfortable, and the dance looks OK.

And then you ask them to dance in a different position in the set, and they still turn left because that's what you do at that time, even though actually they should go right if they're in this new position. Or someone else makes a minor mistake, and the whole thing disintegrates because people get confused and don't know how to adapt (you get to point D by going through A B and C, so you don't need to know where D is tobecause you naturally get there), and just giggle and dither (I teach a mixed team). And because people are remembering a rote drill, they aren't paying any attention to what else is going on, so the lines are ragged and they're slightly out of step, and you can't make a minor change to the dance because they'd have to learn the whole bloody thing over again, but would confuse the two versions.

And you can't build on it. You can't say "this bit of dance is like in that other one", because they don't know how that other one goes.

So I've started moving people around all the time, so they can learn the whole dance. They hate it. It's a lot harder. They make mistakes - and I'm telling them directly that they make mistakes (this is fine with the all-male team; the ladies in the mixed one get upset if you point out that they just giggled when they should have been dancing :roll: ). With any luck it'll make things a lot better later on, though.

Or I'll get thrown out of the team for being mean :wink:

The difference is I don't miss information out. Everyone knows what they should be doing all the time (this is a difference in subject matter: with a dacnce there is a certain closed set of information you need to know). The frustration comes because I expect them to know what everyone else is doing as well as themselves, and oto be adaptable.


</rant> :wink:
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Postby scholadays » 24 Jan 2007 14:06

King Pellinor wrote:The difference is I don't miss information out.

I do. I tend to miss out a great deal of detail in the first instance. I just want folk to get the general idea and the overall objective at first. I'll then fill in the detail if they need it. Saves me some effort.

Reason being, folk seem to fill in much of the detail themselves. Most of where their feet and hands should be seems defined by the objective, the principle, and their own particular manner of moving.

Or perhaps I'm just lazy.

However, there's much pleasure to be gained when one of our younger participants put a pretty accurate arm lock on me almost sponteneously during a game of tag without much in the way of explanation.




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Paul Muad'Dib : No one. It... seemed the proper way.
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