Name that source?

[admin]

A version of Gladiatoria?

[admin]

And another:

http://www.mlecin.com/dss/pictures/pic3.jpg

And is this the same source?:

http://www.mlecin.com/dss/pictures/pic1.jpg

[Cutlery Penguin]

http://www.mlecin.com/dss/pictures/pic3.jpg

Nice double.

[KeithFarrell]

It kinda looks like the figures in the Gladiatoria CL23842 from c.1490, although I don't have a copy of all of the folia from that manuscript. The figures are dressed almost exactly the same as those in folio 153r, however. The illustrations kinda look similar to those in the early Talhoffer manuals but the visors are very different and the style of armour is a bit different as well. The visors (and the armour style) is different from the Gladiatoria KK5013 (the earlier version from c.1430) but it does look very similar to the later 1490 Gladiatoria. Why do you ask?

[Michael Chidester]

The first and second are Jörg Wilhalm Hutter, ff 5r and 19v of the I.6.2.3. The third is Hans Czynner, f 3av of the MS 963.

Why do you ask? I can ID the rest of the images in that directory as well, if you like.

[MugginsToadwort]

The first and second are Jörg Wilhalm Hutter, ff 5r and 19v of the I.6.2.3. The third is Hans Czynner, f 3av of the MS 963.

Why do you ask? I can ID the rest of the images in that directory as well, if you like.

I was going to say Jorg Wilhalm, but Mike is obviously faster...

[admin]

I only ask because I didn't recognise them. I tend to not take much notice of the later German sources (though I recognise the names of both of those), but the similarity of those special swords with the ones in Codex Wallerstein caught my eye. They are quite specific.

[Colin F.]

http://www.mlecin.com/dss/pictures/pic3.jpg

Nice double.

And this would link nicely to the Epee comment in Modern Fencing vs HEMA...

[John H]

http://www.mlecin.com/dss/pictures/pic3.jpg

Nice to see this sword was historical, two guys at the club got a Lutel that had 'hooked' quillion, they were showing what fun things you can do to hook the blade with them. I wouldn't want that pummel unarmored, but interesting ideas.

[Michael Chidester]

I only ask because I didn't recognise them. I tend to not take much notice of the later German sources (though I recognise the names of both of those), but the similarity of those special swords with the ones in Codex Wallerstein caught my eye. They are quite specific.

Yes, I'm rather fascinated by those swords as well. The barbed cross and spiked pommel make them not something I've ever want to pick up unarmored. They also appear in the Cluny ms. CL23842, where they possess a sliding rondel like the Fiore sword. And, of course, both the Pseudo-Gladiatoria segment from Wallerstein and the armored sections from wilhalm were reproduced in Paulus Hector Mair's work, spiked swords and all.

[admin]

Interesting also that they appear in art, unchanged, from circa.1400 through until after 1500.

The other thing that catches my eye is wounding through armour at an 'unobvious' gap - the more I look at period art, the more examples I see of people cutting and thrusting at armour and causing wounds. It all makes me wonder.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

bad quality steel or less plate mail, more ring mail that can be forced trough?
it would be interesting to see how much force a harness from say 1400 could take.
some tests done with crosbows indicate a hel of a lot.
How much froce would a thrust from a longsword generate?
the hammer style, driving in the pommel spikes must make it much more effective but would it still be plausible to pass trough a harness ?

[admin]

The discussion of penetrating plate is a mostly fruitless one, because the armour concerned varied so much in both material and thickness.

There is a 14thC bascinet in the Wallace Collection that is plain iron and there is a 14thC bascinet in the Wallace Collection that is hardened carbon steel.

Then we have the issue of thickness - some greaves (for example) are extremely thin, some are not.

Putting aside the issue of plate penetration, I think sometimes we forget to recognise how many gaps there are in a plate harness - it is not only at the armpits and groin, but also every single opening and lamination - Fiore even shows a dagger stab into the back of the gauntlet. In the example above I suppose we are seeing a thrust getting in a tiny gap at the gorget and a tiny gap between the plates of the sabaton.

[Motley]

"Even a child can be taught to find the chinks in armor" to quote Robin hood. Is that a primary source these days?

[admin]

"Even a child can be taught to find the chinks in armor" to quote Robin hood.

Yes, a particularly useless observation considering that the Sheriff's men all wore mail hauberks.....They were literally covered in 'chinks'.