British Army swordsmanship article from 1901

[admin]

Thanks to Jonathan for this, taken from The Navy & Army Illustrated magazine (1901):
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/topics/so ... anship.pdf

[HPFlashman]

A very nice read, interesting tidbit in the paragraphs regarding the padding of the spring bayonets and quite a nice discussion about the officers use of a rifle...

[Tony Wolf]

Captain Hutton would have ground his teeth mightily at this article ...

Tony

[Thearos]

The officer, Foerster recommends, should have sword and revolver-- the latter to take potshots in the opening melee, before falling back on the sword, with one or two shots reserved for extreme cases. This does suppose proficiency at pistol shooting with the left hand. Is this something Victorian officers trained for ? (Combat swordsmanship with pistol in left hand).

[Colin F.]

We have, on one occasion, had a play with the flintlock airsoft pistols in the left with sabre in the right. Loads of fun, but we found that the accuracy of that first shot made a great difference (obviously)...

Plus, when do you choose to shoot if you only have 1 round? Sometimes a long shot was worth it just to keep people at range and maybe get a kill? Or do you hold on just that little bit longer and guarantee a kill but have slightly less time to take a guard of defence or run the hell away? Or indeed, do you hold the shot back until you are in direct combat and deliver a parry then riposte with a lead ball?

Wish I could find a cheap airsoft revolver...

Maybe... http://www.geniestuff.co.uk/python-magn ... barrel.htm

[Phil C]

IIRC Pringle-Green suggests carrying a pistol in the offhand for boarding actions, braced along the forearm and fired using the little finger on the trigger since accuracy is not an issue in cramped conditions against a massed target and it can then be used to parry attacks, the opposite of Von Tempsky who used the same method with a bowie knife in the off-hand for parrying and a pistol in the strong hand.

De Berenger suggests that if one can't already shoot then one might as well learn with the off-hand since it won't make any difference to accuracy, being a system of instinctive point-shooting, and it'll leave your strong hand free for holding another weapon.

[Thearos]

I suppose a dart (or paintball) gun in one hand, a fencing mask on the head and a nylon waster might make for a good simulation. But it would look well daft.

The issue is also that the sword (with knotted strap, perhaps hankerchief around the hilt) cannot be switched from strong to off hand easily, so the officer starts off in combat with sword in right and pistol in left hand. In which case, weak hand shooting (aiming with dominant / right eye) must be a tricky skill the Victorian combat officer had to master-- and indeed which must have characterized naval officers leading boarding parties, and even infantry officers in 1914. Any traces of it in manuals or in the literature ?

[Ulrich von L...n]

Captain Hutton would have ground his teeth mightily at this article ...

What do you think he would have criticized in this article?

[Tony Wolf]

Captain Hutton would have ground his teeth mightily at this article ...

What do you think he would have criticized in this article?

Hutton had a bitter dispute with the proponents of the Masiello system, lasting several years. He argued that it was too formal and academic to be useful for British soldiers who might come up against indigenous Afridi, Maori and other warriors in actual hand to hand combat. His proposed alternative drew from historical backsword as well as George Silver's close-combat, allowing for rough terrain, etc.

[Ulrich von L...n]

To be honest I cannot see how or why Hutton's own saber fencing system - based on what we have in his Cold Steel - could have been any more useful in hand-to-hand combat with an aggressive and determined native warrior.

[Tony Wolf]

Hutton and his student Cyril Matthey continued to develop the system for about ten years after Hutton wrote Cold Steel. Given that Col. Fox chose the Masiello system for Aldershot, Hutton and Matthey never had occasion to write a full instructional manual for the Hutton system, but elements of it are described in Hutton's own "The Swordsman" and in Matthey's introduction to his republication of Silver's "Paradoxes of Defence", as well as in newspaper correspondence during the "army fencing" controversy of the late 1890s.

Tony

[Thearos]

To be honest I cannot see how or why Hutton's own saber fencing system - based on what we have in his Cold Steel - could have been any more useful in hand-to-hand combat with an aggressive and determined native warrior.

The section in "The Swordsman" (cheap edition) is about supplementing his system, with passing steps, disarms, and pommel action or slicing draw cuts (coup de Jarnac), against an Afridi with sword and buckler.

[Colin F.]

I suppose a dart (or paintball) gun in one hand, a fencing mask on the head and a nylon waster might make for a good simulation. But it would look well daft.

Maybe... But I get the feeling the shooting range at fight camp might have to be a testing ground for something like this...

[Ulrich von L...n]

The section in "The Swordsman" (cheap edition) is about supplementing his system, with passing steps, disarms, and pommel action or slicing draw cuts (coup de Jarnac), against an Afridi with sword and buckler.

Could you quote this part? Presumably you talk about The swordsman. A manual of fence for the foil, sabre and bayonet (1898). As far as I know this book isn't available online.

[Phil C]

Presumably you talk about The swordsman. A manual of fence for the foil, sabre and bayonet (1898)

I haven't mine to hand to check but it's more likely to be in "The Swordsman - A Manual of Fence and the Defense Against an Uncivilised Enemy".

[Tony Wolf]

Presumably you talk about The swordsman. A manual of fence for the foil, sabre and bayonet (1898)

I haven't mine to hand to check but it's more likely to be in "The Swordsman - A Manual of Fence and the Defense Against an Uncivilised Enemy".

Yes. Hutton produced the latter (basically a compilation of earlier essays with the addition of the short "Uncivilised Enemies" chapter") at the height of his dispute with Col. Fox re. the British Army system.

Tony

[Thearos]

I don't own this, I read it in a library about a year ago

The swordsman, a manual of fence. New and cheaper ed.
Hutton, Alfred.
1898 | Lond. | cm.17. |

The section on "fighting against an uncivilized enemy" is an appendix at the end; otherwise, very much like cold steel.

[Ulrich von L...n]

I think we are talking about the same book.
I have taken the title from the topic The works of Alfred Hutton. Unfortunately, it isn't completely right.

The title: The Swordsman - A Manual of Fence and the Defense Against an Uncivilised Enemy
The subtitle: The Swordsman - A Manual of Fence for the Foil, Sabre, and Bayonet
With an Appendix: The Grips and Closes

This appendix is probably the most interesting part of the whole book. One could view a few pages of it, including five pages (127-131) of the appendix at:
http://www.amazon.com/Swordsman-Manual- ... 1845743652

And yes, it was published in 1898, as a new and cheaper edition (one shilling and sixpence).

PS. Originally I thought to post those pages here, but they are marked as "copyrighted material". So I have decided that it might be inappropriate and could cause some problems to this forum. Basically it is strange: Hutton died in 1910, so from 1981 his works are in the public domain, assuming 70 years of the copyright duration.

[Ulrich von L...n]

After reading those five pages of the appendix - how to fight with unorthodox Barbarian überfighters - I am still puzzled a bit. Why Hutton thought that his system was much better than Masiello's?

OK, we have nice hand or wrist grabbing actions, efficient pommeling moves etc, which are absolutely appropriate and useful, but generally speaking the whole sabre system is more or less the same as described in Cold Steel.

[Phil C]

Why Hutton thought that his system was much better than Masiello's?

Tony'll be better able to answer but I my casual reading is that it is more of a "mindset" issue than a practical issue, with Hutton espousing a more vigorous and less "proper" attitude to fencing that would be more suitable for use in battle than the mannered and etiquette-bound mindset that would be appropriate for duelling. Much like the "In the street there are no rules" debates between Combatives and Marial Arts factions today, as started by Fairbairn with his "Kill or be Killed" motto.