Russian fencing treatise 1843

[admin]

Anybody ever seen this? -

Nachertanie pravil fekhtovalnago inkusstva [etc.]. [Rules of the art of fencing.]

Publisher: Sanktpeterburg, 1843.

[Ulrich von L...n]

sokolov.jpg (34.59 KiB) Viewed 1127 times

Nachertanie pravil fekhtovalnago iskusstva
With drawings, in five parts.
Written by Sokolov, Assistant of Head Fencing Master of the Separate Guard Corps
1843

[Ulrich von L...n]

sokolov1.jpg (43.51 KiB) Viewed 1127 times

sokolov2.jpg (43.65 KiB) Viewed 1127 times

AFAIK only these pictures are available online.

[admin]

Nice find! It looks at a glance a bit like Angelo's bayonet manual of 1853.

[Bulot]

There's one in London :
http://catalogue.nal.vam.ac.uk/ipac20/i ... ex=ALLTITL

[Ulrich von L...n]

Some additional pictures:

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97_98.jpg (37.11 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

[Ulrich von L...n]

99_101.jpg (37.39 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

100_102.jpg (34.7 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

[Ulrich von L...n]

There's one in London...

It seems that this particular copy once was owned by Captain Hutton.

"Publisher: Sanktpeterburg, 1843.
Description: [1 v.] 95 plates. 10 x 8 in.
Notes: Bequeathed by Capt. Alfred Hutton.
Names: National Art Library (Great Britain). Hutton Bequest.
Added Title: Escrime Russe."

[admin]

Yes, the Hutton bequest to the Victoria and Albert art library was considerable. His personal collection must have been huge, as it ended up in various collections around the world.

[Katzbalger]

I can translate parts of it, if there is interest, the text is pretty straightforward to understand even though I'm not a professional when Russian language is concerned.

[Gil-Galadh]

Yeah, I can also lend a hand for a translation
in related news: it is about time that i visit the local library to see if they have something interesting there

[andy d]

My wife is of the Russki persuasion so I can get her to help after the washing up etc ...

[Ulrich von L...n]

Details of this treatise from the bibliographical list of works of

Alfred Hutton's
Fixed Bayonets: A COMPLETE SYSTEM OF FENCE FOR THE BRITISH MAGAZINE RIFLE, EXPLAINING THE USE OF POINT, EDGES, AND BUTT, BOTH IN OFFENCE AND DEFENCE

Anonymous Russian.
<some Russian texts> 1843, 95 plates, containing 137 figures out of the text

[Translation. — An outline of the rules of fencing, with sketches, in five parts. By the Assistant to the Principal Fencing-master of the separate Corps of Guards, obi. 4to, St Petersburg, Sokoloff, 1843.]

So we already have 8 figures out of 137.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Now the whole - beautifully illustrated - book is available online.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=19378

[Thearos]

Two questions:

1. Broadsword / straight sabre (or whatever the right word is)-- all the cuts are in the form of moulinets, is that right ? From a very extended engaging guard ?

2. I notice this practice of sometimes lunging with the rifle+bayonet one handed-- Hutton mentions it and disapproves of it. Was this very common in bayonet fencing ?

[Tyler Brandon]

Two questions:

1. Broadsword / straight sabre (or whatever the right word is)-- all the cuts are in the form of moulinets, is that right ? From a very extended engaging guard ?

I know some American manual like St. George Cooke's do this, but it's mostly geared towards mounted action.

2. I notice this practice of sometimes lunging with the rifle+bayonet one handed-- Hutton mentions it and disapproves of it. Was this very common in bayonet fencing ?

You might find "The 'Reach' Controversy" section of this wiki article interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet

[Thearos]

OK, "Throw point", useful term (like "shorten arms"). Thanks.

[Ulrich von L...n]

... or whatever the right word is ...

This Russian treatise uses the term pallasch (Russian: палаш). There is a very good wiki article about it:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0% ... 0%B0%D1%88

As for moulinets, yes all cuts are from a very extended guard, and depicted as moulinets. On the one hand such a cut can be very powerful and decisive, on the other hand it is difficult to see how one could cut the opponent's hand with it, along a huge arc.

It think we discussed molinello cuts in another topic with Chris, and the general consensus was that yes, you can do it safely and effective, but not as direct actions.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Was this very common in bayonet fencing ?

I have seen this in a Hungarian bayonet fencing manual (1848) and in a Russian one written by Lugarr (1905).

[Thearos]

... or whatever the right word is ...

This Russian treatise uses the term pallasch (Russian: палаш). There is a very good wiki article about it:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0% ... 0%B0%D1%88

As for moulinets, yes all cuts are from a very extended guard, and depicted as moulinets. On the one hand such a cut can be very powerful and decisive, on the other hand it is difficult to see how one could cut the opponent's hand with it, along a huge arc.

It think we discussed molinello cuts in another topic with Chris, and the general consensus was that yes, you can do it safely and effective, but not as direct actions.

So that's a pallasch (I thought it something like a Cossack sword or kilic)-- not v. different from a British infy sword.

I'm really curious about the moulinet. The 1875 manuel de gymnastique, French, has ALL cuts in moulinet form, as often noted in this forum-- including direct actions. Is this because the point of a mauel de gymnastique is, well, gymnastics, and hence this is already formalized ? Or is it because the generation of power cuts is considered the main point of this type of fighting ? Anyway, useful for me to remember that the moulinet is there to provide great force for the cut.