Kendo, kenjutsu and HEMA

[Max C.]

I must say that I find the posts about kendo not using European fencing terminology or concept highly unsettling. Here are people saying that Olympic fencing lost its touch with what made it a relevant European martial art, and now we criticize kendo for not acculturating itself. This is precisely why kendo has successfully avoided falling completely in the sport trap, by keeping elements of what made it relevant in its own culture and from a martial art perspective. I think for all intent and purpose it should be applauded for this feat.

Now, I am not a kendoka but a kenjutsuka. I have fenced with a kendoka recently, albeit not an advanced one, and found out :

Pros:
-They are incredibly good at powering up their cuts on a small distance and their reaction time is very good. They will exploit just every opening you give them (this is also a problem which I will come back to in a minute). I have seen top HEMA players go at it and I am sorry but in this regard it is not comparable, if you are not agreeing then you haven't experienced good kendo.
-They can pressure you a lot, both physically and mentally. They are just used to it.
-They are experts of distance work. Once they decided to keep you away there isn't much you can do to close in.

Cons:
-They have very limited options for closing in. The first move I did was to close in and pommel to the face, which worked instantly, the kendoka simply had no idea about what was about to come unto him. Once I did this a couple of times he came up with a couple of ways to keep me away which worked, but in a real scenario you don't have a couple of chances.
-They attack any opening even if it means they will get hit in the process. They thus have a very different concept of what is safe and what isn't. It is in a certain way like sparring with a beginner, meaning it can be very dangerous for both fencers.
-They don't acknowledge certain attacks. Like what was being said, it was very easy to cut the kote, just not like what they do in kendo, but rather like what is done in Toyama Ryu, simply going from chudan gamae to a kote with a very minimal movement. This probably wouldn't chop a hand off, but would severely damage the wrist rendering it useless. It took many such hits one after the other before he even started to notice what I was doing. The same thing goes for slashing the face or neck, running your blade on these regions is just not worth a point for them, but it would still inflict great wounds.

All in all I think this fight was very enlightening for both parties.

[John H]

Let me be the first to shove my foot in it! I have to say Max I can take all of your pros and cons and switch some words around and apply it to sport fencing perfectly fine.

Pros:
-They are incredibly good at powering up their thrusts on a small distance and their reaction time is very good. They will exploit just every opening you give them. I have seen top HEMA players go at it (relate weapon to weapon as I state below) and I am sorry but in this regard it is not comparable, if you are not agreeing then you haven't experienced good fencing. *
-They can pressure you a lot, both physically and mentally. They are just used to it – especially the sabre guys who still use intimidation in the fight – bastards they are, but we are doing it in HEMA.
-They are experts of distance work. Once they decided to keep you away there isn't much you can do to close in.

Cons:
-They have very limited options for closing in. – they just don’t: corps’ a corps’
-They attack any opening even if it means they will get hit in the process. They thus have a very different concept of what is safe and what isn't. – from a HEMA prospective…
-They don't acknowledge certain attacks. Off target and RoW rules...

Sport fencing has kept a lot of what made it relevant to its culture; Western Europe’s culture. The difference is Europe went down that path, and kept going moving from battle ground to duels to the death and dismemberment to duels to first blood continuing to a sport. Epee is very close to the latest ancestor of epee duelling, which you can just trace back through each evolution. Kendo emphasizes a cut that will kill your opponent quickly thus is still simulates a duel to the death.

When they say Kendo is more a sport, it essentially is: its Japan’s sport fencing. It has on and off targets and technique has developed around those rules. Hand sharps to both Kendo players and sport fencers and you have equal chances they will just kill each other. On the flip side I’ve seen exceptional sport fencers who never get hit, just as there are exceptional Kendo players who never get hit.

I feel Kendo got much less of a slapping than sport fencing did, but I’ll attribute it to being much closer to longsword. Perhaps this is because all the longsword fighters can relate a lot better. I think you hear a lot less criticism of different sport weapons from those who use the equivalent historical weapons:

Foil --> Small sword
Epee --> Rapier,
Sport Saber --> Military Sabre**
Kendo --> Longsword

*I've seen some exceptional Rapier/Rapier and Dagger work that does hold up, but the bulk of them were or are sport fencers.

**Sport Saber may be the furthest off as the current rules really don’t encourage good parry-riposte. On the local side I’ve seen some guys get to 6+ parry-ripostes before a break or hit, unrehearsed, in under two-three seconds. That is an impressive sight.

[Max C.]

I have to say Max I can take all of your pros and cons and switch some words around and apply it to sport fencing perfectly fine

That's fine John but I don't really see the point? Did you thought I wanted to say how different it was from fencing? My point was only to explain what my perspective as a kenjutsuka was of kendo.

Sport fencing has kept a lot of what made it relevant to its culture; Western Europe’s culture.

Sport fencing is a good representation of 20th-21st century sport culture of course. But except maybe in certain classical salles, there has been much more change in it since fencing stopped being taught as a method of war. It can be very well explained actually, kendo does have a certain policy to preserve an intangible heritage in its own practice; Japan being a world leader in this field it is not surprising that this mindset may be found there as well. Fencing does not, although some voices are starting- at last - to rise up, just as intangible heritage is starting to gain some recognition in the West and people are just starting to realize its value in a culture which is out of touch with previous generations, it still has a long way to go as most people I hear are more concerned about performance in championships than helping to preserve an "outdated" style of fencing and let alone the unique culture surrounding it. It doesn't mean that kendo is inherently "better" as a martial art, but when it comes to preserving an ancient culture, kendo has done a much better job.

**Sport Saber may be the furthest off as the current rules really don’t encourage good parry-riposte. On the local side I’ve seen some guys get to 6+ parry-ripostes before a break or hit, unrehearsed, in under two-three seconds. That is an impressive sight.

As an adept of 19th century French sabre I would say that the rules also don't encourage proper cutting motion. Sports such as kendo and canne de combat tried to circumvent the problem by establishing rules based on proper striking mechanisms, fencing didn't and in time the faster techniques came to prevail, and not just because of dueling sabres.

[Ulrich von L...n]

You don't shout the word "kiai". The sound made is personal, unless you are hitting a point in which case it is the name of the point. It all becomes quite natural and you really don't think about it. You attack the target, you say the name without thinking.

I understand that you don't shout "Kiai", "Hi-yah!", "Aiyah!", "Eeee-yah!" etc., but anyway the almost constant shouting is definitely annoying. May be useful for breath control, may be good for making more difficult to score a point (and thus making judges life a bit easier), but annoying.

I don't want to offend anybody or say kendo is a bad pastime, but to me fencing is a serious mental game, so constant shouting seems as much appropriate during a bout as during a chess game. Interestingly the Hungarain duelling code explicitly forbade talking, shouting, even making inarticulate sounds during duells.

P.S. During some Hungarian "traditional" sabre fencing competitions a big drum is being almost constantly beaten. At the beginning you have to spend 10-20-30% of your mental energy to "protect" your mind against it. It is most annoying between bouts, because during a fight I could almost completely "discard" this background noise.

[Ulrich von L...n]

If you are looking for some silver bullet for your stress, I don't have it. Personally I used to get very nervous and tense before exams or tournaments, now I don't so much. Nothing special, just older. I can say I perform much better thoroughly warmed up. Get a good sweat on, then go.

I'm not looking for silver bullet or the Holy Grail of stress management. No. I'm just trying to find out methodically what could sport fencing, other fencing arts etc. to offer as competition stress management methods. Till now I have found the following ways of handling it:
- deep breathing,
- muscle relaxation,
- visualization,
- positive self-talk,
- meditation + music,
- performing a certain ritual
(for example cleaning your weapon, this was suggested by a former kendoka at his blog),
- a good warm-up .

[Joeli]

That's not very kendo specific, is it. In addition to such a list (and veering on the edge of the topic), I know that athletes fall back to mentally going through the execution of the technique, self assurance through superstition, restricting their behaviour to either aid their own concentration or to disturb the opponent's, and finally familiarity in the competition environment during the previous week. This all should be understood that it builds on simply knowing your stuff so that you have actual routine of the various possible situations you might be facing. You can get more info by gettng a book for coaching olympic athletes, should be available from libraries. And the coach's role is essential in these.

Approaching by another route to the question of stress management in hema, Döbringer hausbuch mentions mental repetiton before a fight, and advocates entusiastic attitude with moderated confidence, apparently based on religion and medieval virtues.

[scholadays]

No. I'm just trying to find out methodically what could sport fencing, other fencing arts etc. to offer as competition stress management methods. Till now I have found the following ways of handling it:
- deep breathing,
- muscle relaxation,
- visualization,
- positive self-talk,
- meditation + music,
- performing a certain ritual
- a good warm-up .

I must say, in all my years of competition I've always been somewhat bemused by this need to spend time with stress management. Prior to competition I've seen folk listening to music, deep breathing, meditating, visualising, being jolly positive etc and whatnot, an do wonder what it is that they are stressing about?

If any of my students found the need to take such steps, I would be inclined to simply suggest that they are perhaps taking their chosen discipline all a little too seriously.

Personally, I never felt more relaxed and serene than when I was competing...


...I was only all that punching, kicking, biting and snarling on the outside.

[Lyceum]

Never had to deal with that sort of stress in any sport I've ever played. Well, anxiety that I may be the weak link in Rugby, but every team sport has this element to it.

[Joeli]

Approaches to stress in something like adult men playing with fake swords can be pretty much anything from a wide spectrum. I have seen instructors that get really worked up from the whole idea of their school entering a competition, and there are instructors that do their most to encourage competitive attitude. Then again, I have also met the sort of hema instructors that liberally take the piss on their students during competitions just to make them cope with uncomfortability. I have asked around from tournament oriented fencers about competition stress, and the answers so far have been interesting. People seem to want to take it seriously, out of respect to the situation, and feel like the swords were sharp. Maybe it has something to do about wanting to challenge themselves, as one person put it.

The hema competitions i have seen do not to have the stress levels of competitions like tennis and bowling, nor are they as physical as ice hockey of american football. How to approach stress in a situation like ours is pretty much up to what people are seeking out of it. I have a feeling that there will eventually be a concensus and a sort of culture for stress and tournaments. Still some way to go until anyone gets there, I think.

[bigdummy]

I find it more stressful than real fights. It actually helps me think of them as the latter.

I'm more bothered the day and days before a tournament than the day of. Once the fighting starts it's usually ok.

I think music is a good approach, though I haven't been able to try that yet. It helps me to spar a little bit beforehand, lightly and without really trying to win.

BD

[Max C.]

I don't want to offend anybody or say kendo is a bad pastime, but to me fencing is a serious mental game, so constant shouting seems as much appropriate during a bout as during a chess game.

So in your opinion shouting is bad because it stops your opponent from concentrating on the present situation? Well you just figured out what kiai is about . Doesn't make kendo less of a serious mental game, it just adds an option.

[bigdummy]

We, and a lot of other people I know including some well regarded HEMA 'names', have used shouts during cuts for years, I don't see the big deal. I think it actually helps some types of cutting.

BD

[scholadays]

I find it more stressful than real fights.
I'm more bothered the day and days before a tournament than the day of.

Really?
Why?

What's the worst thing that could happen?


I may not have won as resounding a victory as I would have liked?

[bigdummy]

Who said logic ever had anything to do with the human brain, Gordon?

BD

[Ulrich von L...n]

So in your opinion shouting is bad because it stops your opponent from concentrating on the present situation? Well you just figured out what kiai is about . Doesn't make kendo less of a serious mental game, it just adds an option.

On the one hand I don't have problems with shouting: shouting during target cutting exercises, during bouts, especially when people use it sparingly, but on the other hand the constant (!) shouting during kendo training is indeed very annoying. As I said earlier during a bout (for 1-2-5 minutes) I could complete ignore drum beating, kiais, war cries etc. , but not for a whole training session. That is why I have decided that kendo is definitely not for me, and started learning sabre fencing.

[Ulrich von L...n]

You can get more info by gettng a book for coaching olympic athletes, should be available from libraries. And the coach's role is essential in these.

After having read several Hungarian books on Olympic fencing I'm still looking for answers. Sometimes a coach's answer could be especially disappointing: "Just relax, read, listen to music... blah blah". Well, not very professional stuff, especially when you take into account his 30+ years of coaching experience.

... Döbringer hausbuch mentions mental repetition before a fight

Can you clarify what do you mean by "mental repetition"?

[Ulrich von L...n]

I must say, in all my years of competition I've always been somewhat bemused by this need to spend time with stress management.

You are simply lucky.
Sometimes even very competitive, technically excellent, and successful HEMA guys are using the above mentioned stress management methods, not only beginners like me. Anyway it is a sound idea to practice a little more relaxed attitude regarding competitions.

[bigdummy]

I was pretty impressed by Eric Wiggins, who won the longsword tournament this year at FA, was actually sleeping before his pool fights (to be fair there was a fairly long wait, I think he was in the 12th pool or something)

BD

[Joeli]

[double post]

[Joeli]

You can get more info by gettng a book for coaching olympic athletes, should be available from libraries. And the coach's role is essential in these.

After having read several Hungarian books on Olympic fencing I'm still looking for answers. Sometimes a coach's answer could be especially disappointing: "Just relax, read, listen to music... blah blah". Well, not very professional stuff, especially when you take into account his 30+ years of coaching experience.

I was able to read about it when I had a look what the basic track and field and winter olympics dudes are doing. A sports like javelin throwing or ski jumping is full of meditative shit like this these days. Maybe sports fencing is a bit playful and creative of its tone to concentrate too deeply on the psychological side of the competition? Or maybe the whole atmosphere with it's free ranging competitive attitudes are weathering the kids to the environment from early on and serves as a sufficient psychological primer for the competitors, I don't know. On the other hand different sports may handle competition stress in different ways, I know from my own family as my uncle is a world champ level bowler, and his strategy is just not give much room to fooling around or giving attention to unnecessary things on the alley. My grandfather was a nordic medalist in freestyle wrestling and his way was just to ruggedly enjoy the torment. So, as you listed, there are many routes to the similar goals.

... Döbringer hausbuch mentions mental repetition before a fight

Can you clarify what do you mean by "mental repetition"?

It was an awkward translation of the term "visualization", now that I did a cross check for the English term. I think the phenomenon in the western world took off among athletes during the 80's, that you keep on doing perfect repetitions in your head, and it's supposed to train your nervous system for the actual execution of the technique. When you think about it, it's just learning by seeing an example, expect this time the whole process is internalized. The requirement of course is that you have to know your stuff pretty well to use yourself in ideal conditions as a training goal for yourself in the live environment. I don't actually like the term visualization too much, since the repetitions can be done through repeating the tactile sense of the movement and contact with he opponent, or through repeating the sensation of the balance and body configuration during the technique through the proprioceptive sense (one of my wrestling buddies is a psychology student, he gives me funny words to chew at). What the german source I mentioned says concerning preparation for a deadly fight is following:

Also know that when you wish to fence in
earnest, then you shall have a finished piece
in [your mind], any [technique or strategy]
you want that is complete and correct and
hold it in all seriousness and firmly in your
mind when you want to close with him as if
you would say “This is what I intend!”. And
then you will have success with the help of
God and not go wrong.

A bit sketchy, I know, but even with confirmation bias looming over my shoulder, I see stuff like this as a nod towards the kind of training that is these days done as part of stress management.

And don't take my word for it, I claim no expertise on this stuff - but at least I can give pointers toward further studying. I have some problems with my attitude towards friendly competition stress too, as I I get increasingly nervous as the minutes mach onward to the start of the match, until at the start of a fight I start having trouble concentrating or taking the whole thing too seriously. The reaction is extremely different from how I act in a self defense situation, and no shit I am very comfortable leaving a wide gap between the two modes.