About Nicolaes Petter

[Michael Chidester]

Little-known fact: Petter was 148 years old when he died.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

Damn, Why nobody mentioned this wonderful pdf ?

seems like that Hemac pdf needs a new examination.

plate 3 english translation states armpit, where the dutch says oxel and the picture shows shoulder.

seems like the same word is mistaken again in part II plate 1.

so I'm guessing it's wrong?

as I don't have a great grasp of dutch.. nor french I was wondering if annyone could confirm this.

[Bulot]

'Armpit' seems correct to me.
The french version says "aisselle", which is the literal translation. In this plays you don't grab the shoulders, you grab the bottom of the arm, near the armpit.

The english translation probably is'nt perfect, but it was already available before (It's the Remko Prevo version, already linked somewhere in this thread. Alwin Goethals just added a translation of the introduction, if I'm not mistaken).The real value of this pdf is I don't have to use 3 different documents to compare the texts.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

the picture shows him grabbing the shoulder... so perhapps it's wrong both in french and english?

[Phil C]

Possibly it's grab the shoulder but have your thumb in his armpit as you do it

[Bulot]

Dutch word for "armpit" is "oksel".

For me, it is an indication that you should grab the bottom of his arm, on the triceps, near the armpit (as shown in plate 3). Possibly with the thumb in the armpit, as Phil suggests, I'll try this.

In the plate 13, The illustration shows C grabbing B's sleeves under the arm. The fabric of B's clothes are stretched, as C is leaning backward.

[Bulot]

Although Petter, apparently, wasn't Dutch. According to this book he was born in Hessen and was German (by coincidence, my great-grandmother was also from there):
http://books.google.com/books?id=ChPpnM ... 22&f=false

According to Jerome Blanes (from the Wiktenauer page), he was born in Mommenheim, but there is no source linked to confirm this.
Additionnaly, I thought the book was first edited and sold in 1674 by Robbert Corrs, one of Petter's student, but the same wiktenauer page mentions his widow. Out of curiosity, do any of you have any related info or source about this ?

On the armpit subject, putting a thumb on the pressure point inside the armpit is a nice addition to the play. It is actually quite painful for the submitted wrestler.

[Michael Chidester]

Mr. Blanes volunteered to update and expand the existing article, and added that information among other things. I sent him a note explaining the need for citation, so we'll get that squared away soon.

[knirirr]

The english translation probably is'nt perfect, but it was already available before (It's the Remko Prevo version, already linked somewhere in this thread.

In case it's of any interest, I'd like to point out that Mr. Prevo isn't a wrestler (or other martial artist, AFAIK) but is a native Dutch speaker.
I shared a flat with him years ago, which is how he found out about Petter and volunteered to translate the book into English. I haven't seen him for years now.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

interesting.
Renieer and I had a chat about this. And it seems that it's Oxel. Perhapps it should be interpreted differently, or the picture should be read differently.. But the translation is correct.

[Bulot]

In case it's of any interest, I'd like to point out that Mr. Prevo isn't a wrestler (or other martial artist, AFAIK) but is a native Dutch speaker.
I shared a flat with him years ago, which is how he found out about Petter and volunteered to translate the book into English. I haven't seen him for years now.

That's a good thing to keep in mind, thanks for sharing it. I mostly use his translation to compare it with the french 1712 manual. I wonder if the 1680 french edition has the same text. It appears very probable (Isaac Severinus edited both). It means the french translation is 32 years closer to the original than I originally thought.

As for the armpit-related plays, I don't think we should rely too much on the images. Romein de Hooghe is a renowned artist, and his work on the academy is amazing, but I don't recall him being himself a martial artist, and he may have overlooked a few details like this one.
Additionnaly, as I said, these plays works well if you grab the back of the arm, near the shoulder (like shown on the images), but pressing in the armpit adds significant pain to them and discourages resistance.

[Bulot]

Remember when I mentioned the totally sweet ability of Petter to break glass by the sound of his voice ?

This anecdote actually had more impact on the scientific community than I would have thought. The Philologist Daniel Georg Morhof relates it (citing Nicholas Petter) in his correspondance to Henry Oldenburg and Robert Boyle, from the Royal society who unsuccessfully tried the same experiment afterward.

Morhof even wrote a complete article on the subject "DE SCYPHO VITREO PER CERTUM HUMANAE VOCIS SONUM FRACTO",

Morhof's story is reported by Truesdell in "The rational mechanics of flexible or elastic bodies 1683-1788" (page 119/120).

In a study of sound in nature, science and art of 1856, Georges Kastner reports (from the same Morhof source) that Petter was once able to break 25 glasses in half an hour.

How can we be sure it is the same Nicolaes Petter ?
1st. both are tavern keepers in 1670 in Amsterdam...the correlation is very tempting.
2nd, Morhof mentions Petter's (the glass-breaker) tavern to be a place named Gustavsburg, on Prinsengracht, the very place mentioned in Petter's (the wrestler) prologue.

If somebody reads latin better than I do, and would be able to translate Morhof's short paragraph about Petter, page 16 of the linked document, that would be cool.

[Reinier]

Cool - nice research! I will point my trained Latin Slave to these papers

[Andreas Engström]

Cool - nice research! I will point my trained Latin Slave to these papers

How much are those nowadays, and where do you buy them? I want one...

-Andreas

[Reinier]

I just got lucky and ran into one; wouldn't know where to get one otherwise...

Unfortunately, the default setting appears to be Dutch, so below is my quick-and-dirty translation of her quick-and-dirty translation .

When I was living in Amsterdam, I was brought to the attention of Jodocus Plumer (or something like that), who in that place was a famous book lover. Hij told me first, at some occasion, I don't remember which, about Nicolaes Petter, who lived at the Prinsengracht under the sign of the Gustavsberg, who with his voice could break glass cups. Because this seemed wonderful and unusual to me, the book lover did not stop forcing me to let him bring me to this man. Hij brought me there. When he asked if he could do the experiment with me, he took a few cups with a belly (?) of glass, with a knotted foot, that are called 'roemer' in the language of the people, that were no larger than the size of a pint. I chose a few (he wanted that, so that I would not think that there was treachery present), that seemed most appropriate to me. Then, after he had first tried his voice while I was holding them <Saskia may have left out something here in an edit-error> When his voice sounded long and with uninterrupted breath, the glass broke with a rinkling sound, so that the belly broke through with a diagonal fracture, and the knots of the feet of it fell out through the mouth at the opposite side <apparently this last bit was not so easy to translate>

[Bulot]

Thanks a lot Reinier (and thanks to your latin slave). That's more or less word for word Truesdell's report.
Apparently, he trained his "super power" every day, and his son did, too. The young one was even better at it...

[Jerome Blanes]

Hi there,

Latest news on Nicolaes Petter and the biography:
Recently me and the great Petter were featured in the Dutch newspaper The Parool. The journalist has also placed the articles on the Dutch sports history website.
You can do a translate with Google or whatever else if needed:
http://www.sportgeschiedenis.nl/2012/02 ... en-in.aspx
http://www.sportgeschiedenis.nl/2012/02 ... -eeuw.aspx

The creation of the Nicolaes Petter biography is in its last stages. Soon we will reveal which famous martial arts fighter is writing the foreword!
For more info go to:
http://www.nicolaespetter.blogspot.com
http://www.jeromeblanes.blogspot.com

Any questions or any suggestions, feel free to email me:
amsterdamoffice@yahoo.com

[admin]

Hi Jerome,
welcome to the forum,
Matt

[Bulot]

Hi Jerome. Really looking forward this book of yours.

[Bulot]

interesting.
Renieer and I had a chat about this. And it seems that it's Oxel. Perhapps it should be interpreted differently, or the picture should be read differently.. But the translation is correct.

Side-note on this : Achsel in german means "armpit" as well, but may also mean the humerus area, or the shoulder, which is more consistent with the picture.
I don't know about dutch, but the ambiguation may be the same, or, as Petter was german, ùaybe he used the word in his german sense.