HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

[Phil C]

In HEMA we still value this concept, we care deeply about the inner strength of a fighter getting up again and fighting one more time even if it hurts.

I'm impressed by those that engage in those sorts of practices but many of us do HEMA related activities exactly because they don't hurt- and go quite far out of our way to not doing or using things that may prove painful or even overly exhausting, such as flexi-weapons, lighter sticks, padding, focussing on less "visceral" treatises &c.?

The very reason I,and many others I teach and encounter, do "tool" based Arts, particularly those of the later eras, is because they don't cause as great, if any, pain, such as karate or boxing or many of the unarmed Arts do or have any of the potential for injury that longsword has, especially if grappling &c. is involved. The sportily-inclined chaps who like badminton but wouldn't do rugby, if you will.

In short those of us closer to the "romance" than "reality" of weapons use, who still maintain an ethic of "doing what the books tells us to do".

[Cutlery Penguin]

I'm impressed by those that engage in those sorts of practices but many of us do HEMA related activities exactly because they don't hurt- and go quite far out of our way to not doing or using things that may prove painful or even overly exhausting, such as flexi-weapons, lighter sticks, padding, focussing on less "visceral" treatises &c.?

The very reason I,and many others I teach and encounter, do "tool" based Arts, particularly those of the later eras, is because they don't cause as great, if any, pain, such as karate or boxing or many of the unarmed Arts do or have any of the potential for injury that longsword has, especially if grappling &c. is involved. The sportily-inclined chaps who like badminton but wouldn't do rugby, if you will.

In short those of us closer to the "romance" than "reality" of weapons use, who still maintain an ethic of "doing what the books tells us to do".

It's always going to be a spectrum from one extreme to another, and I suspect most of us don't simply sit at one place on that spectrum, but move up and down depending on various factors. I also think that our position on that spectrum correlates to the nature of the reaction to the idea that Sports fencing certifies HEMA.

[Phil C]

I also think that our position on that spectrum correlates to the nature of the reaction to the idea that Sports fencing certifies HEMA.

Indeed- that does seem to be a neat summary of the matter.

[Ulrich von L...n]

To my mind sports fencing is the apogee of the former with none of the latter. It is all about the touch. It has been refined time and time again to look at nothing more than the ability to touch your opponent against his will. All gameness, or bottom has been excluded from the competitive side of the art.

Based on my own experience I would say that in sabre fencing - even with Olympic sabres aka fairy swords, car aerials etc. - you could place quite painful cuts on your opponent's body (hand, forearm, shoulder), especially if he uses only standard protection. Coaches discourage hard hitting, people sometimes complain about it, and even refuse to fence with you.

Interestingly enough it was (or still might be) a valid tactical trick. At the weekend I read a newspaper article about Tibor Berczelly, Olympic champion (1912-1990) who was famous for his intimidating "power" cuts.

erem_images_berczelly_jpg.jpg (12.46 KiB) Viewed 786 times

[Lyceum]

You get called on "brutality" for doing that and its a dickish move. If you need to resort to that you don't belong on the piste. Last time that happened to me I ended up head butting and then kicking the crap out of somebody. Its certainly, thankfully, not something we see often.

[Cutlery Penguin]

To my mind sports fencing is the apogee of the former with none of the latter. It is all about the touch. It has been refined time and time again to look at nothing more than the ability to touch your opponent against his will. All gameness, or bottom has been excluded from the competitive side of the art.

Based on my own experience I would say that in sabre fencing - even with Olympic sabres aka fairy swords, car aerials etc. - you could place quite painful cuts on your opponent's body (hand, forearm, shoulder), especially if he uses only standard protection. Coaches discourage hard hitting, people sometimes complain about it, and even refuse to fence with you.

Interestingly enough it was (or still might be) a valid tactical trick. At the weekend I read a newspaper article about Tibor Berczelly, Olympic champion (1912-1990) who was famous for his intimidating "power" cuts.

erem_images_berczelly_jpg.jpg

I never said that no-one ever did it. Simply that it was not the focus. Are you telling me that I am wrong and Sports Fencing is not in fact about accuracy and getting the "touch" but it is in fact about showing spirit and gameness?

[Ulrich von L...n]

All gameness, or bottom has been excluded from the competitive side of the art.

What I am saying that there were - and I hope still are - sport fencers who have plenty of fighting spirit and gameness, "bottom" whatever we call it.

[Cutlery Penguin]

All gameness, or bottom has been excluded from the competitive side of the art.

What I am saying that there were - and I hope still are - sport fencers who have plenty of fighting spirit and gameness, "bottom" whatever we call it.

Yes and there are plenty of Guitarists with blonde hair. Doesn't make it in the least bit relevant.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Sapienti sat.

[Cutlery Penguin]

Sapienti sat.

Tace atque abi.

[knirirr]

Interestingly enough it was (or still might be) a valid tactical trick. At the weekend I read a newspaper article about Tibor Berczelly, Olympic champion (1912-1990) who was famous for his intimidating "power" cuts.

As mentioned earlier, my instructor used to do this. His favourites were whips to the nipples, back of the neck, and groin. Most sport fencers seemed not to wear a box, a failing that also seems common in HEMA.
I also encountered a chap in competitions a couple of times who used to contrive to flèche such that his hilt would hit his opponent in the mask "by accident".

[bigdummy]

I also think that our position on that spectrum correlates to the nature of the reaction to the idea that Sports fencing certifies HEMA.

Indeed- that does seem to be a neat summary of the matter.

Yeah I can see both sides of it. I like the roughness of HEMA. But I also like the fact that I don't get repeatedly hit in the head with a heavy blunt instrument - like in say, boxing or MMA. I tried boxing for a while in the Army, enjoyed it, and have a lot of friends who did boxing or similar contact sports more seriously ... some of them have speech impediments now. I didn't want that!

I also wanted to get out of the brawling we used to do in the punk scene but also, wanted to keep having fights, to keep that feeling I am a little addicted to. But without any malice and with no risk of going to jail.

One of the things I really like about the HEMA tournament world right now (at least based on the ones I've been to), is that as rough as it is, it's still very good natured, at least among people who are fighting. You really gain respect for each other and this feeling of taking the risk together. You thrill at the other guys good form, even when you get hit. In watching your buddies and complete strangers display courage and skill in challenging circumstances. But you don't end up with a headache for three days after a match! Bruises are one thing, I can live with that, but I need my brain for my day job...

Now if only we can fix this problem with the gloves...

BD

[bigdummy]

I just thought this would add to the discussion

[Lyceum]

I once had a friend actually ask me why I bothered fencing since we apparently all have guns now and shouldn't I just play football instead? Seriously. She's now a banker so in your face economy.

[bigdummy]

lol

[bigdummy]

Actually I'm pretty sure a good epeeist could skewer that guys wrist from there before he shot, but since they can't step off-line he'd get wasted by the afterblow (bullet)....

BD

[Motley]

Actually I'm pretty sure a good epeeist could skewer that guys wrist from there before he shot, but since they can't step off-line he'd get wasted by the afterblow (bullet)....

BD

That guy is holding a foil so he should get right of way on the bullet...

[John H]

nope, the foilist's arm is back and the gun is extended in an attack. Gun already has right of way...

oh wait his foot has landed thus the attack is ended...

[Joeli]

But then again now the foilist has to get all the way to the vest to score the point, since arms are not a valid target. But he can still parry the preparation of the trigger pull, get the RoW and lunge low, catch the bullet in the head (which doesn't count as a target area) and score a point. Right?

It that gun electrified, anyways.

[dreagan]

So was there anything you got from KDF that you brought back to your epee fencing?
BD

Yeah, but it's generally a bit more nebulous and hard to put my finger on.

Cutlery Penguin described at least part of it pretty well.

Doing HEMA definitely trains "toughness" better/more directly than sport fencing. Not to say that sport fencers can't be or aren't tough, just that I personally found some benefits (i'd have a hard time saying this with a straight-face to an olympian though ).

This covers physical as well as mental toughness, to a degree. Additionally, I'm now a bit more confident in my epee fencing in general. I believe this has something to do with HEMA, but it could just be a part of maturing as a fencer. dunno.

Some more concrete ways that HEMA has improved my epee game:

-Being able to do symmetric footwork well is an advantage in certain specific situations (if any sport fencers are interested I can talk about this).
-My "in fighting" game is noticeably better. In epee, corp-a-corp is actually allowed...it just means the referee must call a halt to the action (it's not penalized). I've been using this to my advantage more purposefully since I am now more comfortable at the "close bind" position in longsword.

If i think of something else I'll mention it