Sports fencing federations and HEMA

[bigdummy]

And forgive me for using German terms, I assume you are familiar with them.

BD

[Motley]

I see it like this, single time stuff is good and the theory sounds good, however you need a good command of tempo and measure to get it right. If you can't parry-reposte safely then trying to single time is going to lead to doubles. So beginners just jumping into single time stuff is running before you can walk. ish.

[John H]

Single time actions are better if you are confident on what your opponent will do, if you are not 100% sure then you take bad risks. With a longsword they will be much more committed to doing the action, so you will ‘see it coming’ more giveing you better options to respond in stesso. With a single hander, sabre, small sword etc, you have a much better ability to transition mid attack. The Feint-disengage is very common for a sabre (the controlling share of Waite is this) to foil but you don’t see many on the longsword. If my opponent starts any attack and I wish to just circle step and attack, with the smaller blades he may disengage right into the direction I stepped.

I would also say you have the distinct advantage at closing…

[Mink]

And an epee is twice as heavy as a foil.

But the effect of mass is probably not linear...

when I talk about lunges, ballestras, parry-ripostes, binds, attacks in opposition, beat attacks...any fencer--from an Olympic fencer to a classical fencer to a HEMA rapier fencer--should know what I'm talking about. The basic footwork is shared. The basic parries are shared. The concept of leverage and how it applies to a meter-long one-handed pointy thing is shared. Specific tactics and how you combine techniques and the details of how certain parries are executed will be weapon-specific.

I'm not convinced that the basics are shared. Sure you can use the modern terminology to describe motion, but in effect this is borrowing a word to describe a slightly different motion.

Take for example the basic guard position. Here is a quick side-by-side of Fabris, classical fencing (the image is from Mr Martinez's website), and Thibault:

I've tried to get the most neutral position for each (though I'm fairly sure the classical fencing guy is doing a parry at that moment, but at least the general stance is not changed). These three basic guard positions are completely different. The common points are having the point directed to the opponent, the sword foot forward, and the sword in one hand. The upper body posture, position of the off-hand, leg flexion, weight distribution, even foot placement differ across the positions. Even a simple step, front foot, back foot, will be mechanically different from these positions, will have different speeds and different tactical applications. So while you can call all of these a simple step, in effect one has to re-learn how to step so as to not upset the posture and stay safe.

While I agree that modern fencing is an adequate preparation for many blade arts (not just rapier), I disagree that it shares the basics of most rapier styles, and that rapier should be somehow be seen as another specialization like saber, epee and foil are.

Note that I'm not saying that a rapier cannot be used with a modern style common with the three weapons. I'm saying historical styles were not similar to that.

Regards,

[Mitlov]

Except I've seen stances similar to all three in Olympic fencing. I've seen both epeeists and foilists who tend to take on a bit of a hunched stance (more common in foil than epee), and keeping the arm at nearly full extension is not so rare for French-grip epeeists. The second stance is most common with people who have a strong base in classical foil. The third I've seen from a tall French-grip epeeist with a very defensive game.

There's a LOT of diversity in stance in modern Olympic fencing; there's not any one particular stance that we all use. And there's a lot of difference between the weapons too--epeeists tend to be more vertical/less hunched than foilists; sabreurs often keep the rear foot more forward and off the line created by the front foot to allow for faster, more explosive advances. So saying "this form of historical fencing used this stance and this other form of historical fencing used this other stance" doesn't demonstrate that modern fencing is not inherently related. All of those stances in my opinion are not different and unrelated at their very core; instead, just adaptations of the same basic concepts to fit a particular strategy with a particular variety of light-weight poking weapon.

[John H]

Frankly I’d stop pointing out the differences, he needs to put a blade in hand and fence a bit. The stances, blade weight, etc are all common enough that he will do fine until he gets an opponent that is skilled enough to exploit the little things. If you do a middle weighted stance against some people they will just stab your knee, safely with no issue, there is a reason you put your weight back.

I say show up to the next tourney you can and fight in it. Don’t spend any time learning the particulars of the weapon fence dry with what you have. In quite a few tournaments I’ve seen and been in you will not make it far, the level of competition is pretty high amongst those who know the weapon. In others I’ve seen a simple stop thrust/reverse lunge would get you through the first few rounds.

[Mitlov]

Frankly I’d stop pointing out the differences, he needs to put a blade in hand and fence a bit...I say show up to the next tourney you can and fight in it.

Sorry, mistook this for a discussion forum.

[John H]

It seemed more like the ‘discussion’ was ‘don’t bother you don’t know what it is’ rather than a good discussion of what the differences are and why. If you are curious and wish to discuss it then we can compare the footwork and discuss why they are different and to what advantage each has. Or the blade designs. This is even a good discussion between Cappo Fera, Fabris and Croanza, or Hutton, Angelo and Del Frante, or Lichty and Fiore, not strictly a sport vs HEMA. But every time I read this lately it seemed more like a ‘hey you wouldn’t do it right, you’re supposed to put your weight back instead of centered…’ I don’t see that as productive or educational.

I also would like to see someone come in dry and fight in a tournament. Personally I do think there is more similarities than differences and you will do well in some spots. I also think the level of non-longsword fencing should be ticked up a little so anything that rattles the cage…I'd also like to get more SCA Rapierists out to the HEMA Rapier fights, I've seen better work with them at times too.

[Mitlov]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

[DavidCoblentz]

I also would like to see someone come in dry and fight in a tournament. Personally I do think there is more similarities than differences and you will do well in some spots. I also think the level of non-longsword fencing should be ticked up a little so anything that rattles the cage…I'd also like to get more SCA Rapierists out to the HEMA Rapier fights, I've seen better work with them at times too.

If I recall, a couple of years ago, a fairly high level epeeist competed in a rapier tournament in the bay area. It was his first time holding a rapier. He posted with it and won the tournament.

I used to do a lot of rapier in the bay area, though I recently move to the east coast. Perhaps we have crossed paths at some point? I did a lot of SCA stuff, some classical stuff, and some renn faire tournaments (Ardenwood, Golden Gate, etc...), demos at BayCon, etc...

[John H]

David, you moved to New York, that would explain why I haven’t heard much from your group around here…I fought you at Ardenwood two years ago, I’m with Dav’s group.

If I recall, a couple of years ago, a fairly high level epeeist competed in a rapier tournament in the bay area. It was his first time holding a rapier. He posted with it and won the tournament.

Was that Vlad when he started on Rapier? I’m curious now, I’ll have to ask him. If it was perfect example, Olympically trained Epee'ist walks in and beats everyone. He's even better now that he's been on Rapier for a few years.

By the way David is one of the best Rapier and Dagger guys you will find, so we aren't talking about a sports guys beating a bunch of slouches.

[DavidCoblentz]

David, you moved to New York, that would explain why I haven’t heard much from your group around here…I fought you at Ardenwood two years ago, I’m with Dav’s group.

Ah, ok, cool. I figured we'd run into each other at some point! I'm actually in Atlanta now, but I get to make it back to CA every once in a while for work.

Was that Vlad when he started on Rapier? I’m curious now, I’ll have to ask him. If it was perfect example, Olympically trained Epee'ist walks in and beats everyone. He's even better now that he's been on Rapier for a few years.

Nope, different guy. Vlad is pretty good though, I lost to him in the finals at Ardenwood a few years ago. He visited my practice once and I had a great time fencing with him though!

[bigdummy]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

I think there is an event coming up in the NW, organized by the Vancouver guys and the Washington State guys. I think there are people in Oregon too. Not sure how far that would be from you..

BD

[Mitlov]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

I think there is an event coming up in the NW, organized by the Vancouver guys and the Washington State guys. I think there are people in Oregon too. Not sure how far that would be from you..

BD

I'm in Medford, Oregon, near the California border. Seattle is ten hours each way. Portland five hours each way. I've missed several major USFA tournaments in Portland that I wanted to go to because I can't afford to take the time off work and away from my kids (a two-year-old and an autistic five-year-old) to make a tournament there feasible. Maybe in a year or so, things will calm down a bit. I'll keep my eyes open, but I'm not holding my breath.

[KevinMurakoshi]

I also would like to see someone come in dry and fight in a tournament. Personally I do think there is more similarities than differences and you will do well in some spots. I also think the level of non-longsword fencing should be ticked up a little so anything that rattles the cage…I'd also like to get more SCA Rapierists out to the HEMA Rapier fights, I've seen better work with them at times too.

If I recall, a couple of years ago, a fairly high level epeeist competed in a rapier tournament in the bay area. It was his first time holding a rapier. He posted with it and won the tournament.

I forget his name, but he was a former national level UK Epeeist who moved to the Bay Area as a programmer. Maybe Gav knows him?

[bigdummy]

Well it's closer than Sweden anyway

[John H]

If you’re in Oregon the best options for events are the Vancouver one and Vegas – CombatCon. Vegas is in July and it’s a bigger event with a lot of classes. The Rapier tournament last year was single hit elimination/double elimination thus don’t go for just the tournament as it will suck when you are eliminated in the first round to a double hit (most likely outcome for anyone, not slighting you here.) There will be more freeplay for the fighting side but it’s more about the classes.

Looks like the closest groups to you are Eugene and Kevins group in Davis. We have smaller regional events in the Bay Area we can keep you up on if you like, but frankly I wouldn’t drive up to where you are for a small event unless I had business there already. We do have wine down here though I’d make a trip for that if I wasn’t already here.

[Anders Linnard]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

If you do make it over here however, we'll make it worth your trip. Fighting, sauna, beer, long discussions into the night. And semi-naked wrestling in the middle of the night.

/Anders

[Mitlov]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

If you do make it over here however, we'll make it worth your trip. Fighting, sauna, beer, long discussions into the night. And semi-naked wrestling in the middle of the night.

/Anders

You had me interested right up until that last sentence

[Anders Linnard]

I'd be happy to come in and fight in a tournament if the logistics worked out, but it seems like there's this expectation that I'll travel to frickin' Sweden just to satisfy other people on this forum, which isn't realistic for a guy who has enough trouble getting to tournaments in other areas of Oregon. Parenthood and limited finances and all that.

If you do make it over here however, we'll make it worth your trip. Fighting, sauna, beer, long discussions into the night. And semi-naked wrestling in the middle of the night.

/Anders

You had me interested right up until that last sentence

I guess it's an acquired taste It's actually friendly, unpretentious and voluntary. In any case, we would love to have you over.
/Anders