Plate depicting lean to the side during a lunge?

[Mitlov]

At admin's request, this is split off from the HEMA versus modern fencing thread.



This image was posted over at fencing.net and the response was strong and overwhelmingly negative. The plate depicts several fencers leaning to the side as they lunge. Not into their opponent, not staying balanced, but leaning to the side. What I said, and what many others said, is that that simply doesn't make sense from a balance perspective, from an offensive perspective, from a defensive perspective, etc. But since my criticism of this plate has been equated with disrespecting the author of this manual and disrespecting historical fencing masters as a whole, I'm going to ask if anyone can supply video of a leaning-to-the-side lunge being successfully used in Swordfish rapier competition or something similar.

You certainly don't see it in the Swordfish rapier competition linked below, where all lateral movements are done with the body as a unit (what I'd call "tai sabaki" from Shotokan--a triangular entry involving a shift to the side, a pivot so your centerline is still facing the opponent, and a move into the opponent), not by leaning to the side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OADYAUIaq0

Does someone have a video of the lunge, as it's depicted here, actually working successfully against a resisting opponent in competition (whether it be Swordfish, or FIE fencing, or something else)?

[John H]

What you are looking at is a version of Passata Sotto. It is still ‘taught’ in Sport fencing, most other versions of this have the left hand on the ground for ‘balance.’ The balance issue is not 100% mandatory but at my age I prefer to drop the hand. Some of the younger ones can pull this off without the left hand. I can see quite a few threads over at fencing.net that reference a passata sotto so I know you guys know of it. Perhaps it was not labled properly.

This of course is not how a normal lunge would be formed, this is one particular action to use when the stars align. I would say it’s about as common in current Rapier as it is to see it in Epee.

This goes along with what BD and Matt were discussing about different texts being designed for different reasons. In Sabre this is in the ‘fencing school’ manuals, but not in the military manuals. These ‘plays’ as some today call them are specific responses to specific stimuli. Extremely rare to find in any competition or freeplay because the stars must align. I have seen a Passata Sotto once, the guy clearly outclassed his opponent and spent over 30 min trying to line up the attack. Only when I knew he was looking for it, I gave him the correct lunge just to see if he could pull it off.

Other versions:
http://www.scherma.roma.it/itaNEW/area- ... -sotto.jpg
http://www.salvatorfabris.org/img/Paris ... aSotto.jpg

[zarlor]

I think part of what yo might be missing in the perspective there is also that his hips are a bit further back in that image. Since you are looking at him straight on I think it is hard to determine that kind of depth from there, so his balance point is not so far out to the left as you may be thinking. I concur with John, though. It's used but not very commonly, from what I've seen, and is, again only in my experience, used in somewhat specific situations (an opponent you know is cutting or thrusting high vigorously, for instance, where this allows a void without modifying footwork.)

[Mitlov]

The other depictions of the passata sotto depict a lean forward, resulting in a long, low lunge that can go underneath a high-line attack. I've got no problem with that. But none of the other images display a lean to the side, instead a lean toward the opponent. No matter how I squint, the plate at issue appears to depict a lean to the side.

If it's meant to depict a lean toward the opponent and they just drew perspective funkily back then, I don't have a problem with it. But that's just not what I see when I look at the plate.

[zarlor]

Well, to me that looks like mostly a lean forward as well. I can, kinda, see how you might think he's leaning strongly to the left, but to be honest it doesn't look like that to me. Slight lean left, sure, but not an unbalanced one. His legs are bent, rear sticking out directly away from you, though (countering the slight left lean I think you're seeing), which I can see might give the perception that it looks like he's leaning more left than he is, but I think the turn of the shoulders helps suggest the proper perspective. *shrug* My only suggestion would be to try it and see if you find a position like that which works for you where the balance point works. You should be able to find it and it's not something I think I can easily describe.

[Mitlov]

Here's why it looks like a lean to the side to me instead of a lean toward the target:

(1) We're seeing the top of his head, not the side of his head in a strictly profile view like in the two images John H provided.

(2) In the two images John H provided, the shoulders are squared off--the rear shoulder is nearly as far forward as the front shoulder. In the plate, you can see the entire length from shoulder to shoulder.

(3) In the two images John H provided, the head is directly over the knee. In this image, the head is barely at mid-thigh.

It seems to me that those three details would only be accurate perspective-wise if they were depicting someone leaning to the side, not leaning toward their opponent.

[zarlor]

Here's why it looks like a lean to the side to me instead of a lean toward the target:

(1) We're seeing the top of his head, not the side of his head in a strictly profile view like in the two images John H provided.

Well, the perspective is from a little taller than the person there, so naturally you'll see a little of the top of the head of him (and I mostly see his face, are we looking at the same pic?)

(2) In the two images John H provided, the shoulders are squared off--the rear shoulder is nearly as far forward as the front shoulder. In the plate, you can see the entire length from shoulder to shoulder.

It seems to me that the Meyer plate in question is a lot more like the right-hand side of the first picture John posted, just from a slightly different perspective. In the Meyer plate he'd keeping his back hand on the hip (and a bit more out of the way) putting the shoulders a bit more in line like that right-hand pic. In any case the shoulders are not squared off int eh Meyer plate, there is a roll forward on the left shoulder and the right shoulder is higher.

(3) In the two images John H provided, the head is directly over the knee. In this image, the head is barely at mid-thigh.

It seems to me that those three details would only be accurate perspective-wise if they were depicting someone leaning to the side, not leaning toward their opponent.

To me the head is about right if his hips are pushed out a bit more to the back in that picture. I don't really know what to say about it, though. I, and many others I've seen, can get pretty much that posture (and the second plate in that first pic by John H. pretty much, with a few minor points, looks much the same as this pic, to me... maybe I've looked at far too much Renaissance Italian art or something, though.) Got me, but I think it looks OK with no unbalanced lean to the left. *shrug* Sorry I can't be more help, I guess I'm just missing the perspective you're seeing there.

[Mitlov]

Well if it's just depicting a lean to the target and I'm just not properly understanding Renaissance perspective-drawing, like I said, I have no issue. I thought it was trying to depict a lean to the left, a lean off the centerline, but the consensus here appears to suggest that that's not the case.

[John H]

The reason he is leaning ‘in’ instead of forward is his arm is in prime (first). This guard is very hard to do with your body squared over your front leg, kinda twirks your shoulder. When using a rapier instead of sabre or epee, you need to go into prime to close the line during this action. Try it out, get into the lunge, and put your arm in the position you see. This will be with your palm facing right, quillion/flat of the blade facing up and down.

More after I finish up with this client…;)

[bigdummy]

Anyone here know how this relates to Meyer's concept of Die Waage ('the scales') ?

I know there is a passage in Wallerstein which reads (this is an old and rough translation) "So, you fight long against someone, and you come to him at the distance of the sword, so both of you are hand-to-hand. Then, you should stretch your arms and your sword far from you, and put yourself into a low body position ( die Waage ), so that you have a good grip and long reach in your sword, and so that you attack and parry against all which is necessary. The reach is that you stand behind your sword and lean yourself; the grip is that you stand low…and make yourself small in your body so that you are great in your sword.”

BD

[Ran Pleasant]

Anyone here know how this relates to Meyer's concept of Die Waage ('the scales') ?

I know there is a passage in Wallerstein which reads (this is an old and rough translation) "So, you fight long against someone, and you come to him at the distance of the sword, so both of you are hand-to-hand. Then, you should stretch your arms and your sword far from you, and put yourself into a low body position ( die Waage ), so that you have a good grip and long reach in your sword, and so that you attack and parry against all which is necessary. The reach is that you stand behind your sword and lean yourself; the grip is that you stand low…and make yourself small in your body so that you are great in your sword.”

BD

Respectfully

In the 1870 images the rear foot is in a 90% position, thus the man is clearly not in Die Waage in either image. In the Meyer image the rear foot is in the 135% position, ie the Open Stance of Die Waage with body weight forward and centered.

I'm not posting this to piss-off you or anyone else. Get pass personal issues with Clements, read the article with an open mind, practice it, and the footword in all of the Meyer image will make more sense.
http://www.thearma.org/VoltaKeyandScale.htm

Ran

[Magnus L]

I admit it is difficult telling how far back his hips are, but looking at the image and adopting a similar position I would think the center of his head is aligned with the center of his left foot (based mainly on my own body position, but studying the image I think his head position is approximately the same). I do not feel unbalanced in that position, but a bit awkward since I am not that used to the low lunges.

[John H]

In case my last post wasn’t as clear here’s the long winded version:

Arm position: palm facing right, thumb down, arm strait. Get into your lunge position and lean really far forward. How does the shoulder feel? To relieve this awkwardness you lean to your left a little to take the strain off the shoulder. The other importance is to get your head under the plane of your blade and arm, no point in getting into a weird position if your head still gets hit. Now change your hand into 'second' with the palm facing down, see how the position differs and how much more squared you can be.

So as I have been saying all along, there are differences between the blades we use, these differences dictate different body actions, ways to hold the blade and the importance or lack of importance of different guards. Rapier has a wider blade along the flat and is more rigid than an epee and this allows you to ‘control a line.’ This means I put your blade on the outside of mine and I have protected myself from your blade (closing the line.) Rapier uses three main hand positions two are all you will normally see. Second and fourth being the main ones and first (prime) is not used as often. Third is essentially a guard to use before you know which side your opponent wishes to engage on, there are other even more minor but we won’t go there. Epee and smallsword do not need to be as concerned with these positions as the blade functions differently but they still have their place.

For Rapier the Passata Sotto needs to control your opponent’s blade by ‘keeping’ it in the crooks of your guard. This is only possible in this position with Prime. When his blade leaves that spot you don’t have control or knowledge of where it is and bad things happen.

And please ask more of these type of questions. I agree, question authority. Just because it's drawn in a book doesn't mean it's perfect unless the application is on. If we can't give you a logical explanation then we do need to re-look at it.

Edit: Now that I think about it the lean in is more because he is thrusting in prime and leaning forward while doing it. The common pracical application of doing so is a passata sotto but you can still do it while lunging forward.

[Cutlery Penguin]

(1) We're seeing the top of his head, not the side of his head in a strictly profile view like in the two images John H provided.

To me that looks as if he's purposefully ducking his head to bring it behind the cover of his hilt rather than leaning his whole body.

[Martin Wallgren]

Just judgeing from the picture the man in the background lookes like he is striking not lounging!

[bigdummy]