The mysterious un-named sabre parry.

[The Salmon Lord]

For a number of reasons I am in the process of documenting the sabre system I teach and have found something odd. I seem to have an extra parry that isn’t in any of the sources I have looked at!

The parry I refer to is a parry to oppose cut 7 (the directly downwards cut) with the hand to the inside. Think of it as St George with the hand at the other end in that the blade is horizontal, with you looking through the crook in your arm. Its not really a high octave or a high quarte to my mind, but half way in between so far as I define these parries.

I’d got into the habit of calling it high quinte but I strongly suspected this was incorrect so went back to the military sources. And can I find it...? Can I buggery.

I very much doubt I’ve invented a new parry. From certain cuts, such as a cut 5 or 2 its naturally a how one would parry a cut 7 instead of a St George.

So what the blazes is it called????

[knirirr]

IIRC Prof. Bracewell called it "seste".

[John H]

Seems Starzewski calls it 'Szosta' - the sixth, so that's close to what knirirr's finding as well. I can't recall seeing it in Angelo or Roworth/Taylor, so I do not think it is in many military systems, if I have time i'll double check those two (having time is doubtful though until later tonight.)

IIRC it's also in Italian systems, perhaps Chris will have better insight, or after I get home I can check.

[Ulrich von L...n]

85_86.jpg (55.58 KiB) Viewed 1124 times

85 or 86?

[admin]

I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere in Cold Steel isn't it?

It's otherwise known in British sources as the 'Sword arm protect'. I'm not a fan, personally.

[John H]

Hutton calls sword arm protect; ‘parry of high octave’ and has a ‘parry of high quarte’ that is close but looks more like a ‘unicorn’ guard.

Le Marchant’s version of sword arm protect has the blade hanging almost strait down which seem more logical to me and looks much less like Starzewski’s ‘sixth’. But the Highland and Hungarian version you posted does look more like a cavalry version of ‘sixth.’

I don’t like it on foot against cutters but I find it useful against thrusters, especially if you want to get inside on them. I definitely see the usefulness for cavalry. The Italian Dueling system uses it as part of their basic moulinette (never spell that one right.)

[admin]

As you say, it can be usedful for closing. You can do some good techniques by engaging in quarte with the opponent's sword to your left and then keeping blade contact and a pivot point and driving the pommel forward and under the blade, taking you to their outside line. This is used a lot in longsword and messer - it is one form of Fiore's 'volta' that takes you either into grips and throws on their outside line or enables you to safely pommel them in the face without losing cover from their sword for a moment.

[Chris Holzman]

Seems Starzewski calls it 'Szosta' - the sixth, so that's close to what knirirr's finding as well. I can't recall seeing it in Angelo or Roworth/Taylor, so I do not think it is in many military systems, if I have time i'll double check those two (having time is doubtful though until later tonight.)

IIRC it's also in Italian systems, perhaps Chris will have better insight, or after I get home I can check.

Yes - in the Italian systems it is Sesta, or sixth. It is generally taken with the point about 10 inches or so above and in front of the hand, and is basically a mirror image of Quinta, or fifth.

The parry protecting the external cheek with the point down and hand high, is Settima, or seventh. Maestro Parise called it Ceduta di Sesta, or yielded sixth - but that name didn't survive. Settima/seventh is by far the dominant name for the parry in the Italian system. I prefer it as a parry only when my opponent has parried my attack in 4th and intends to riposte to the external cheek (though you can cheat and cover the head this way as well if you're careful and the cut comes from the outside).

[Chris Holzman]

85_86.jpg

85 or 86?

What is this image from?

[The Salmon Lord]

I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere in Cold Steel isn't it?

It's otherwise known in British sources as the 'Sword arm protect'. I'm not a fan, personally.

Not to my knowledge. Isnt sword arm protect a high octave covering the diagonal cut 1 rather than vertical cut 7? Its what I've always understood it to be.

SIxte seems to be the consensus. Thank you all.

My reasoning on it not being in the military manuals is very few actually have cut 7, i.e. the vertical cut.

[Chris Holzman]

One further bit of minutia on the choice of 5th parry or 6th parry: according to Del Frate's synoptic table for Radaellian sabre, a molinello to the head from the left (i.e., through the parry of 1st) is parried with 6th, and the molinello to the head from the right (through parry of 7th) is parried with 5th. The large, full sized molinelli pass around and behind the head before coming forward, and therefore the downward cut is actually every so slightly angled and targets the internal or external part of the forehead, respectively. Thus, 6th and 5th are opposed to those cuts so that the strong part of the blade intercepts the cut more readily.

This preference isn't seen everywhere though, and 50 or 60 years later a lot of authors simply say that 6th is for teaching only, not for bouting. They also tend to omit the 7th parry altogether.

Chris

[Ulrich von L...n]

What is this image from?

From Laszlo Gerentser's book.
Fig 85 is "szekszt" (in Franco-Hungarian) 6th, Fig 86 is "szeptim", 7h parry.

He wrote that 6th was categorised as emergency parry in the older fencing systems (my coach calls it master parry). As for 7h Gerentser stated that it was rarely used, mainly after your opponent made 4th parry + outside face ripost (external cheek as you wrote).

[Ulrich von L...n]

... and 50 or 60 years later a lot of authors simply say that 6th is for teaching only, not for bouting. They also tend to omit the 7th parry altogether.
Chris

In another popular sabre fencing manual - it seems even the smallest Hungarian library has it - Aladar Gerevich & Laszlo Szepesi's book (1979) 6th and 7th aren't even mentioned, let alone being depicted.

[Chris Holzman]

What is this image from?

From Laszlo Gerentser's book.
Fig 85 is "szekszt" (in Franco-Hungarian) 6th, Fig 86 is "szeptim", 7h parry.

He wrote that 6th was categorised as emergency parry in the older fencing systems (my coach calls it master parry). As for 7h Gerentser stated that it was rarely used, mainly after your opponent made 4th parry + outside face ripost (external cheek as you wrote).

As a note for others - 86, or 7th parry is being depicted at the moment of impact of the two blades. Most illustrations (including Del Frate's, in my book) show the moment of release, when the blade is pointing vertically downward. Impact is here, as in 86 above, and you yield to the pressure while slowing the opponent's blade, until you're pointing downward. Riposte uses that yield to power the molinello to the external head or cheek. Lunge as done in itagliata is acceptable, or w/o footwork, depending on distance. direct cut ripostes could be rising to the abdomen, or a rather tricky diagonal downward cut to the chest, or you could even make a true edge sforzo in 3rd (like a molinello to the head), or a sforzo di cambiamento with the false edge, which ends with the hand in the parry location for 4th or 4th low, but with the hand in 2nd to enable a cut to the outside cheek.

Otherwise, Radaellian sabre includes some circumstances where you may make a parry of 5th or 6th, and shed the blade through 1st or 7th respectively, in order to open up other targets for the riposte. Those are pretty rare circumstances - though the heavier the blades, the more possible it becomes.

[Ulrich von L...n]

It is interesting to know new details about these old guards, but at the moment I am trying to be efficient with the basic 3rd-4th-5th (triangular) guarding system, explore the possibilities of the linear (1st-2nd-5th) system. Despite the fact that the sport sabre does not encourage the usage of other guards, 6th is a very intuitive guard.

As a note for others - 86, or 7th parry is being depicted at the moment of impact of the two blades. Most illustrations (including Del Frate's, in my book) show the moment of release, when the blade is pointing vertically downward. Impact is here, as in 86 above, and you yield to the pressure while slowing the opponent's blade, until you're pointing downward. Riposte uses that yield to power the molinello to the external head or cheek.

In another thread it has been mentioned by a sport fencer (Gav) that molinellos are useless, because they telegraph your intention too much. A molinello from a yielding guard could be a nice & fast thing. Just a conjecture.

[Chris Holzman]

It is interesting to know new details about these old guards, but at the moment I am trying to be efficient with the basic 3rd-4th-5th (triangular) guarding system, explore the possibilities of the linear (1st-2nd-5th) system. Despite the fact that the sport sabre does not encourage the usage of other guards, 6th is a very intuitive guard.


In another thread it has been mentioned by a sport fencer (Gav) that molinellos are useless, because they telegraph your intention too much. A molinello from a yielding guard could be a nice & fast thing. Just a conjecture.

A molinello from a parry that yields to pressure is about the only way I would do them anymore in a modern context - e.g., parry in 4th, yield to pressure and make a rising molinello to the flank, or 1st and molinello riposte to head. The problem is that the new box timings from a few years ago really punish any parry-riposte that doesn't meet the opposing blade and come directly forward instantly toward the target, because any hesitation probably means the opponent's otherwise spent blade is going to brush your target somehow and then lock your riposte out via the timer. Keep in mind that we don't have a materiality or edge alignment issue to work with as a way to mitigate the danger of losing the touch. Its fine enough as a fun game to play, but it's not a martial arts application of sabre, which is really about all I'm interested in anymore.

Even with a 19th century practice sabre/dueling sabre, I'd advise a little caution with 6th parry, because its very easy for a fencer to feint to head and cut to forearm as you come up to 6th parry. That feint and cut can be made almost without changing hand position, if the attacker is careful about feinting to the internal head, almost like a diagonal downward cheek cut. semi-circular 5th is really a little safer for most people. I'd never say not to work with 6th parry, it can be a great parry, but it's also an action that is going to have you getting whacked quite a bit until you're really well drilled.