HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

[Gav]

In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

I think you are right and I have been moving my teaching methods closer and closer to sport fencing drills for a while now. On the other side of the coin, the way that most clubs teach HEMA is somewhat similar to how martial arts are taught in Japanese dojos, ie. starting with set techniques, repeated a lot. That does seem to be how a lot of the historical masters may have taught, given what evidence is available in the treatises.

Time out for a second.

I am going to recommend something.

Get hold of a book called Fencing:The Modern International Style by Istvan Lukovich

http://www.amazon.com/Fencing-Modern-In ... 0965946819

It's getting on a bit now - and I found it a tough read because of the quality of translation - but it is a good foundational text book. It's aimed at coaches and is supposed to enumerate Lukovich's training method. You'll probably find it interesting because he discusses the old method and contrasts it with the "new". he explains what your aims as a coach should be and the state you want to put your pupil in. It's thought provoking stuff.

I'm not proposing you adopt the modern fencing style but I am proposing you adopt a modern teaching method and reduce the kata element of your work. I realise this statement may be unpopular.

In short; yes this is how the old masters taught. It was the received wisdom but we have learned that there are alternatives.

++ Removed Italian example to avoid confusion. ++


You're probably not interested in the actual fencing stuff but look at how he proposes you teach something this complex.

[Motley]

In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

I think you are right and I have been moving my teaching methods closer and closer to sport fencing drills for a while now. On the other side of the coin, the way that most clubs teach HEMA is somewhat similar to how martial arts are taught in Japanese dojos, ie. starting with set techniques, repeated a lot. That does seem to be how a lot of the historical masters may have taught, given what evidence is available in the treatises.

I don't know. The impression I get from the structure of I.33, how the priest is the agent in many of the play and is showing the student implies a one on one Master coaching student relationship. Even how Fiore describes teaching in private hints to me at this kind of process. Yes the plays are set actions but they are a codification of the techniques. To me a more advanced person giving the correct stimulus for a less advanced person so they can learn the correct response seems appropriate. agan how specifically though?

Thoughts?

[Alex B]

Gav, I just want to point out that on the last page of that thread on the fencing.net forum, you've got people saying: "Don't threads about role-playing belong in the water-cooler?" or "As an aside, is there a historical study on how apes beat on each other with rocks and sticks?" When I joined the sports club here at uni, and explained what I did, people thought I was mad. The coach made some comment about how I should hold the foil differently because I wasn't holding a clumsy battleaxe any more.

Earlier, you said "Do you really want to know why many people who fence get annoyed with historical fencers? Go back and read that thread. Pay close attention to the absolute levels of disdain." Well the same is true the other way round, many Olympic style fencers act very disdainfully towards HEMA. Which is part of the reason why some HEMAists have such negative opinions towards Olympic style fencers. Many of them look down on us, which makes us reacting negatively towards them understandable.

Conversely, I've not found that true in some other martial arts. I've done very small amounts of training in escrima (I briefly went to a traditional escrima club, then a JKD club that taught escrima, and finally the Dog Brothers before deciding that none of those were for me), and in all those clubs I got a positive reaction when I explained to them what HEMA was, completely unlike the reaction I got from Olympic style fencers.

To be fair though, the worst reaction I ever got was when I went to ninjitsu, where they talked about how Japanese swords were just inherently better.

[issus]

At times this reminds me of the discussions between BJJ and Judo boards. Most people find a common thread and respect between the two arts. But all too often those who speak are those who see no value in the others existence.

I've seen BJJ guys try to deny that BJJ comes from Judo and reversely that Judo has EVERYTHING that is done in BJJ with the same focus. Both of these are obviously not true to those who keep an open mind but they always come up in every discussion.

The same can be seen here. HEMA is not Olympic Fencing, but there are some things that can be learnt from their teaching methods. Olympic Fencing is ultimately a descendant of the arts HEMA studies but it is not the be all and end of all of sword fighting/craft (Of course my opinion). Unfortunately, humans love Clan warfare and ridiculing the other sides.

HEMA has a right to be suspicious of the USFCA thinking of doing a HEMA cert when there has been no contact between USFCA and the HEMA groups already in existence. This does not mean that Olympic Fencing has nothing to offer. But at the same time Olympic Fencing has to see that what HEMA is doing is not related to SCA or LARPing activities. Some members in the other forum seem baffled at why we use the old manuals when obviously we have advanced from there.

They are used because they are the fountain of knowledge for longsword, rapier, buckler, etc. Foil, Epee and modern Sabre is lucky to have a continuous thread of instructors and competitors to look back on. Longsword, for example, really died about around the 17th century. Meyer, my favourite Master, used it more for sport and as a starting tool than anything else. Most likely he carried a side-sword for protection. And he lived in the late 16th century.

The vast majority of the techniques and theory work as advertised from what we have seen. Why would we "reinvent the wheel" as one member of the fencing forum claimed we are doing, when the wheel is already there and we are merely trying to figure out how to use it again. (Laboured analogy sorry)

HEMA is a young activity but growing and will continue to grow. Hopefully it will grow into more structure and professionalism. I see that happening in the short time I have know about it.

[Cutlery Penguin]

What I am interested in is helping you guys understand what you can take from fencing to help make your own past time better. Why bother reinventing the wheel when there's been a bunch of people solving these problems for a long time?

As for drills that's a pretty tough question because it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I think there are areas that HFers should tighten up on generally. In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

So assuming you don't want to go into any detail about drills what exactly is it that you can help me understand about fencing that will make my own practice better?

[bigdummy]

I still think a lot of the confusion here on the side of the sport fencers is because they don't know the difference between HEMA and various amorphous types of re-enactment, SCA and LARP and so on.

Just to be clear, this is what a typical HEMA longsword fencer looks like:









I couldn't find photos of smallsword but here is rapier


and saber

You'll notice, few of us wear period or historical costumes, we don't adopt personas or speak in bad Elizabethan accents. In fact we dress kind of like you do, only we wear black instead of white. Since we are the villains.

So the larger world of "historical" fencing as in something like from a Renaissance Fair doesn't mean the same kind of thing that we are into here, though that doesn't stop people from that milieu from holding forth to you, or to us, about how to fence.

There is still some overlap between the two groups or scenes as well, but there is also a distinction which some of us are trying to make more clear.

BD

[admin]

We keep getting sport fencers coming into HEMA now. The trickle is certainly getting bigger. I'd be interested to see a really good sport fencer using HEMA weapons and HEMA rules. In something like military sabre they might be pretty good from the outset. I know that a couple of the rapier guys out there have been pretty high level sport fencers previously. It's interesting though that ex-sport fencers aren't dominating the HEMA competitions, though I'd say that a fair number of top HEMA fencers are probably ex-sport fencers.

[Moberg]

Well. to be fair. The two groups thats we HEAMists tends to flame more than others are SCA/LARPers and sport fencers. And I dont think thats an coincidence. A big part of building any identity, personal as organizational, is to exaggerate the differences. We´re just in the teenage step of groving up as an organization. And by doing that we´re sometimes fail to recognize pretty good fencers and fencing methology in both camps.

I dont feel offended by outsiders givin provoking and nasty comments about HEMA on forums. They are just trolling or thats just tells us more about them and their single tracked mind and their inability to grow past their teenage stage. Sometimes I even envy their beleifs in their own greatness and their ability to see the world so black and white.

[Cutlery Penguin]

their ability to see the world so black and white.

Never black and white, just white...

[Phil C]

I couldn't find photos of smallsword

Here's a couple of hundred for you-
http://s1190.photobucket.com/albums/z44 ... symposium/

[Dave B]

Don't use those Photo's Phil, they give a terrible impression.

For a start off there are loads of photos of me. And at least two modern fencing coaches

[Phil C]

And people wearing only white! If we're the villains I want a volcano base as I can already open a door to see a room full of people practicing their combat skills

[Anders Linnard]

I don't think I've ever encountered a lot of slandering of sport fencers within the HEMA community. I've heard a lot of people say that they don't like the sport fencing rules, feel that it lacks a martial approach, that the rules don't fit them or that they don't agree with ROW. But that isn't flaming, that is having an opinion, acknowledging the difference between our endeavours and explaining why they prefer HEMA. Flaming would be to say that sport fencers are idiots, that their sport is ridiculous or similar. Very few people in HEMA say stuff like that. I have done a little sport fencing and I like it. I also enjoy badminton and tennis.
/Anders

[Dave B]

Not a lot, but it does happen. As I said I think it is a minority on both sides.

[Gav]

What I am interested in is helping you guys understand what you can take from fencing to help make your own past time better. Why bother reinventing the wheel when there's been a bunch of people solving these problems for a long time?

As for drills that's a pretty tough question because it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I think there are areas that HFers should tighten up on generally. In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

So assuming you don't want to go into any detail about drills what exactly is it that you can help me understand about fencing that will make my own practice better?

I never said I didn't want to go into any detail.

What I said was that it was a tough question. There's no secrets and, from my point of view, quite a lot of it is common sense.

I can tell you the areas I think HEMA guys should work on if you're interested?

[xedric]

The discussions on the other side of the fence: Sport fencing vs HEMA for those interested.

[Cutlery Penguin]

I can tell you the areas I think HEMA guys should work on if you're interested?

Absolutely. I'm always interested in areas I may be able to improve.

[Reinier]

I can tell you the areas I think HEMA guys should work on if you're interested?

Absolutely. I'm always interested in areas I may be able to improve.

Absolutely. I'm always interested in areas I may be able to improve.

[Cutlery Penguin]

I can tell you the areas I think HEMA guys should work on if you're interested?

Absolutely. I'm always interested in areas I may be able to improve.

Absolutely. I'm always interested in areas I may be able to improve.

Now that is just plain lazy!

[Reinier]

Conservative use of energy and effort is my preferred explanation.