HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

[The Salmon Lord]

Lots of Historical Swordsman do seem to have the Manowar syndrome “If you’re not into metal you are not my friend”

What you need to appreciate Gav is that we hate each other just as much. Bloody raiper guy with their rubbish sword and long lunges. They should be doing proper smallword. And dont get me started on f'ing longsword. *

* This is called humorous exaggeration for all you literalists (and longsworders)

[Gav]

Let's be clear on something. Competition is just a way of proving yourself within a certain environment - it is not the end.

Secondly it completely overlooks the fact that a large percentage of instructors in HEMA are past or current sport fencers! We have been there and done that. It is not secret or hidden wisdom.

I keep hearing this. Let me clear up a point for you.

I have done a fair bit of Historical work. We're talking back in my uni years but I have done quite a lot. I have experience of your field.

This argument goes both ways.

It's really not a sideshow. It is the essence of why some people want to do HEMA instead of sport fencing. The rules we use define our aims and objectives and that is why so many HEMA people just can't understand modern sport fencing.

It really is a sideshow. Step back and look dispassionately at what you're saying.

You may think that, but I disagree. I'll just reiterate that I fenced at school and university and many other people here have or still sport fence. I agree that recovering to guard is something that is taught still in class, but it is largely ignored in competition and actual fencing. Not to mention the way that the right of way rule has led to sabruers advancing into distance with their arms bent so as to have priority when safely in distance to hit.

It is not ignored in competition no matter what you might think.

It doesn't sound like fenced at a very great level.

In the UK the environment isn't great for people new to the sport. I know it's a real problem. They lack the cultural baggage and the background to understand what is going on. If you add poor communication and an amateurish understanding of sport science into the mix it's no wonder people walk away. I've fenced on the continent and trained with world class coaches and fencers - the experience is very different to what I learned as a beginner.

This sort of situation, whereby a safe recovery is practically impossible in one tempo, is only too familiar to those of us who have done sport fencing:

That is just a photo. (And ladies foil is not a great example as it is in a bit of a crisis right now.)

Fencing is not a series of tableaux. It's a conversation where two protagonists speak approximately the same language. It flows back and forth and it's never static. I can pull many many ridiculous pictures off the net of fencing looking illogical and strange (some of them will feature me) but that is because of the static nature of what you are seeing.

Also double defeats are a part of our heritage but you'd be pretty bored by what I have to say on the subject.

... if some specific rules were changed in sport fencing then you could end up with something very similar to what we do. But at the moment there is quite a wide gap.. which is fine.

This is at the heart of the problem.

We're not interested. You shouldn't be interested either.

Which is fine with me!

Now can we talk about something different? I'll try to help where I can.

[Gav]

Lots of Historical Swordsman do seem to have the Manowar syndrome “If you’re not into metal you are not my friend”

What you need to appreciate Gav is that we hate each other just as much. Bloody raiper guy with their rubbish sword and long lunges. They should be doing proper smallword. And dont get me started on f'ing longsword. *

* This is called humorous exaggeration for all you literalists (and longsworders)

Heh.

We hate each other too.

(Bloody Sabreurs with their toy weapon and nonsensical footwork!)

[Dave B]

(Bloody Sabreurs with their toy weapon and nonsensical footwork!)

You forgot their habit of doing a victory warcry every time they think a blind man on a paasing speeding bus might think they'd landed a hit

The internet is a great place for people to p*** each other off isn't it?

[admin]

Another ps. - Given a choice between a potential new student in my HEMA class who has done 1) a Japanese martial art, 2) sport fencing, 3) reenactment, I generally find that 1) fits in the best and learns what we do the quickest, but closely followed by 2). 3) Are usually way behind, but some people are the exception.

[Gav]

(Bloody Sabreurs with their toy weapon and nonsensical footwork!)

You forgot their habit of doing a victory warcry every time they think a blind man on a paasing speeding bus might think they'd landed a hit

I think you're thinking of ladies Sabre - aka hippo mating.

The internet is a great place for people to p*** each other off isn't it?

(I really hope none of the WS I know read this or they are going to kick my arse. ha ha)

[admin]

We're not interested. You shouldn't be interested either.

Which is fine with me!

Honestly, I'm not.
I see HEMA clubs with good teachers springing up all over the place at the moment and we all seem to have a steady flow of students - that's all I really care about, seeing HEMA grow.
The only real reason we all started talking about sport fencing again here recently is that one sport fencing organisation in the USA is now getting involved with historical fencing and it has provoked a lot of discussion in our community (mainly in the US forums rather than here of course).
Generally speaking, the last month aside, we more or less ignore sport fencing and are perfectly happy to work/play with sport fencers as and when the opportunity arrises.

[Cutlery Penguin]

Hi Gav,

I'm sorry to hear you have had poor experiences with Historical Fencers, though to be honest I'm not entirely surprised. I run a couple of clubs in Surrey and try very hard to stay away from the term "Historical Fencing" as it brings in entirely the wrong crowd. What I teach is English Martial Arts. Armed and unarmed. When it comes to weapons I focus on early English Backsword.

That being said I too am one who has fenced (foil, badly, for about 2 years). I learned a lot about what I do by doing it and I'm glad I did, but it is as different as tai chi is to boxing. Both fine as they are, but different.

I'd be very interested in hearing about coaching drills you think would be valid for those of us on this side of the line. I've learned a lot from a sport fencing coach who teaches private lessons at the same place I do, but I'm always hungry to learn more.

Incidentally, if you, or any of your colleagues are ever in the area you would be more than welcome to come along and see either of my groups first hand.

[Dave B]

I try very hard to stay away from the term "Historical Fencing".

Probably its a bit off-topic, but I don't like the term either. I think 'Historical Fencing' suggests that what you are doing is competitive fencing with older weapons types. I think the term leads to confusion. I preffer to thing of it as the study of historical swordsmanship, where the study is the purpose of the excercise and actually picking up a sword and fencing is only to further that study, not an end in iteself.

I'm not massively keen on HEMA or WMA either, as some of the 'civilian' swordsmanship isn't martial. After all if you study Angelo, he's really all about the salle, and although he does mention duelling we know he discouraged it. I think he spends more time discussing doing a smart salute! If you go a just a tiny bit later dueling in england was mostly with pistols.

But then I know that most people will disagree with me, which only goes to prove the point about all hating each other.

[admin]

It is a problem. Though the more numerous we become, the less of a problem it is likely to be.

[Stevie T]

I stopped using ther term 'historical fencing' because people thought I meant making wattle hurdles etc.

[Dave B]

Carefull, we'll end up with the bloke from the traditional hedgelaying and fencing website over, and then there WILL be a flame war.

[Steve Reich]

I try very hard to stay away from the term "Historical Fencing".

Yeah, I don't like to use it because as soon as you say 'fencing', people assume that it's something close to modern fencing. At that point, no matter how much you explain what you do, unless you have the weapons on hand, their first mental image overrides everything you say.

I sometimes use Western Martial Arts, but as soon as you say 'martial arts', they think of either Karate uniforms or BJJ/UFC/MMA and you have the same problem as you do with 'historical fencing'. Perhaps I should just taken Hutton's route and call it "Old Swordplay".

Steve

[Phil C]

The terms "Old Swordplay" and "Antiquarian Antagonistics" cover my interests quite nicely.

[Gav]

Hi Gav,

I'm sorry to hear you have had poor experiences with Historical Fencers, though to be honest I'm not entirely surprised.

We've all had bad experiences...

I'd be very interested in hearing about coaching drills you think would be valid for those of us on this side of the line. I've learned a lot from a sport fencing coach who teaches private lessons at the same place I do, but I'm always hungry to learn more.

Incidentally, if you, or any of your colleagues are ever in the area you would be more than welcome to come along and see either of my groups first hand.

It's been a while for me but as I live nowhere near Surrey it'll have to wait - but thanks!

As for drills that's a pretty tough question because it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I think there are areas that HFers should tighten up on generally. In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

[admin]

As expressions, I like 'swordplay' and 'swordsmanship'. But apart from that not covering the things we do like knife defence, wrestling, pugilism etc, it also unfortunately seems to make people I meet instantly think of reenactment.
I would frankly rather be seen as a sport fencer than a reenactor. Not that I have anything against reenactors, but I would say that my club is far close to sport fencing than reenactment in what we do. Looking at things in that broad a perspective makes us look very close to sport fencing, I think.

I think we are better off sticking with terms like HEMA or WMA and just working on our own reputation and exposure.

[admin]

It's been a while for me but as I live nowhere near Surrey it'll have to wait

Gav, there are lots of other clubs up and down the country. Perhaps half of the UK groups are members of:
http://www.thebfhs.org.uk

[Steve Reich]

As for drills that's a pretty tough question because it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I think there are areas that HFers should tighten up on generally. In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

I agree...OTOH, there are instructors who do exactly that. However, the level of instruction and practice in HEMA varies widely through the whole spectrum from showing up once or twice a week and "playing swords" with no rhyme or reason to a highly structured framework of classes with a clear pedagogy and progression. Many of the better instructors come from some sort of formal martial arts or swordsmanship background (i.e. Koryu, Classical Fencing, etc.) and use their experiences to model something similar. However, a good system of pedagogy and material requires more discipline and is difficult for people who generally don't have much experience in a formal discipline to figure out for themselves...

Steve

[admin]

In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

I think you are right and I have been moving my teaching methods closer and closer to sport fencing drills for a while now. On the other side of the coin, the way that most clubs teach HEMA is somewhat similar to how martial arts are taught in Japanese dojos, ie. starting with set techniques, repeated a lot. That does seem to be how a lot of the historical masters may have taught, given what evidence is available in the treatises.

[Motley]

In terms of coaching you should think in terms of putting your pupil into a controlled bout situation and build their repertoire from there - how you do this.. well that's a long long subject.

I think you are right and I have been moving my teaching methods closer and closer to sport fencing drills for a while now. On the other side of the coin, the way that most clubs teach HEMA is somewhat similar to how martial arts are taught in Japanese dojos, ie. starting with set techniques, repeated a lot. That does seem to be how a lot of the historical masters may have taught, given what evidence is available in the treatises.

Would you guys be interested in starting a thread on this and getting into more specifics? That subject is quite frankly (imho ) a much better use of our time than the modern vs historical discussion.

This is something I have been wanting to get at and figure out for a long time. I can't help but feel that there is something very valuable in this type of training. Basically to me it is taking a baby step beyond just repeating plays.

In a sense having an idea of how a play works, an 'interpretation'*, is just the very first step. We need to move beyond that in understanding and technical ability. I know I personally am not very good at seeing how to do this. I have some ideas and I see all kinds of hints in the Fiore Ms but seeing the big picture and knowing how to get to the technical ability I think is achievable well I am a bit lost.

* oh how I hate that term!