Hello Hello!

[Harry J J Gardner]

Hello there my name is Harry Gardner I’m 22 years of age and I am based in London, and I have only recently become very interested in renaissance martial arts. This new interest stems from my passion for late 16th and early 17th century history.

As of the last 6 months I have begun a personal project of researching all areas of society and life in Elizabeth’s the 1st London in the last 13 years of her reign (1590-1603) and was interested to know what fencing styles were prevalent during this time in London and England as a whole? Also would you be able to tell me which fencing masters/teachers were based in London and where were their schools. I know of Rocco Bonetti, his son Jeronimo, Vincentio Saviolo, Giacomo di Grassi and the official guild, English Masters of Defence. But what of others?

My 2nd question is what did rapiers look like during this period? Did styles change dramatically in these 13 years or did they generally keep to a consistent look, and would we have seen the Pappenheimer hilts alongside Swept hilts or other variations.

And last but not least I know George Silver was prominent during this time and advocated the use of the backsword, so again what did the backswords and basket hilts look like during these 13 years.

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,

Harry

P.s I apologise if this is in the wrong thread and will move it or delete it if notified by a moderator.

[admin]

Hi Harry, welcome to the forum.
I'll give some brief responses, but leave a fuller response to people studying this period.

I have begun a personal project of researching all areas of society and life in Elizabeth’s the 1st London in the last 13 years of her reign (1590-1603) and was interested to know what fencing styles were prevalent during this time in London and England as a whole?

As far as I can see, you have a lot of different fencing styles interacting in London at that time:

English
- The traditional style taught by the Masters of Defence
- The 'other' English styles being taught/practiced by people not in the Masters of Defence (eg. Silver)
- The 'hybrid' styles which took influence from Italian and Spanish fencing (eg. Swetnam, perhaps)

Spanish
- I am not sure if this was openly being taught in England at the time (as the Spanish were the 'enemy'), but certainly fencers in England knew about it, as shown by Silver's text. Thibault's treatise was later widely published and available.

Italian
- Hanging Sword Lane in the City of London was full of Italian fencing schools apparently. There seem to have been a lot of Italian fencing teachers in London at this time, and most people wrongly state that the first English language fencing treatise was Silver in 1599, when it was actually Saviolo in 1595. Understandably people like Silver and the Masters of Defence got annoyed that the Italian teachers had come along and taken a lot of their trade. By the early-1600's though it is obvious that there were also English teachers who embraced the new Italian weapons and terminology and started developing their own hybrid styles (eg. Swetnam and the Duke of Newcastle).

The main swords carried and used at this time could probably break into 4 main categories:
1) Basket-hilted broadswords/backswords
2) Swept-hilted cut and thrust 'sideswords'/broadswords
3) Swept or Cup-hilted rapiers with blades primarily designed for thrusting
4) Tucks/estocs, with hilts like 3), but with narrow, sometimes triangular-sectioned, thrusting-only blades

Also would you be able to tell me which fencing masters/teachers were based in London and where were their schools. I know of Rocco Bonetti, his son Jeronimo, Vincentio Saviolo, Giacomo di Grassi and the official guild, English Masters of Defence. But what of others?

The best source for this that I know of is Aylward's book 'The English Master of Arms' -
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/t ... /sortby/3/

My 2nd question is what did rapiers look like during this period? Did styles change dramatically in these 13 years or did they generally keep to a consistent look, and would we have seen the Pappenheimer hilts alongside Swept hilts or other variations.

The best source I know for that question is Norman's 'The Rapier & Smallsword':
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesw ... d/7453951/

Most rapiers in 1600 were various styles of swept-hilt and cup-hilt. There were distinctive English styles of hilt - Armour Class in Scotland make an example. Pappenheimers are somewhat later, I think.

And last but not least I know George Silver was prominent during this time and advocated the use of the backsword, so again what did the backswords and basket hilts look like during these 13 years.

See here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17095
And:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12690
And:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18089
And:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18031
And:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11625
And:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18190

[Dave B]

Thanks Mat,

I didn't know 'rapier and smallsword' was back in print - I was looking for a decent second hand copy at a reasonable price but gave up.

If anyone is interested there is a waterstones promo code KB4932 that will work on this.

Dave.

[admin]

I didn't know 'rapier and smallsword' was back in print

Lol, neither did I until I just googled it!

[admin]

If anyone is interested there is a waterstones promo code KB4932 that will work on this.

Thanks Dave, just ordered it with that code.

[Dave B]

Yup, me too.

[Harry J J Gardner]

Thanks Mat! that post was very helpful and a good basis for me to research further with your suggestions.

The guys over at the ARMA forum also suggested this book and was wondering if you could comment if possible:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Noble-Scien ... 114&sr=8-1

Was fully enclosed basket hilts around during this time such as the one in the link below:

http://www.backsword.com/images/backsword.jpg

You say that you think that the Pappenheimers came later but what of shell hilts or cage hilts? It quite confusing to a newcomer such as myself as I don't know which are period terms or modern terms for the various forms of hilts.

Either way would just like to thank you again!

Kind regards,

Harry