Sports fencing federations and HEMA

[Steven H]

It all comes down to this question: can you certify/evaluate teachers without knowing what they teach yourself?

A modern education degree is predicated on this being true.

[Steven H]

What you fail to comprehen about the un-name offender is that one of his biggest break through in recent years has actually been in his teaching methodology. Unlike you, the un-name offender turned to the historical manuals to see how the histoical masters were teaching the subject, as defined in their works . . . The un-name offender and his students have found all they need to know about teaching the art in the manuals of the historical masters.

And what do the masters actually say on this topic? If I read Ringeck I learn that I should teach zorn techniques before zwerch techniques.

But when I have a student standing in front of me, sword in hand, what do I do? What do I say? How do I progress the training? I see none of that information in the Lichtenauer manuals.

But the coaching training I've received from Ken so far has addressed those precise questions. And that's why I support the program.

My support is not unequivocal. We need to see more info, before making a final judgement. And we need to pay attention to how the program evolves. But I'm optimistic about it's ability to be beneficial in the long run.

Cheers,
Steven

[harry tow]

What you fail to comprehen about the un-name offender is that one of his biggest break through in recent years has actually been in his teaching methodology. Unlike you, the un-name offender turned to the historical manuals to see how the histoical masters were teaching the subject, as defined in their works . . . The un-name offender and his students have found all they need to know about teaching the art in the manuals of the historical masters.

And what do the masters actually say on this topic? If I read Ringeck I learn that I should teach zorn techniques before zwerch techniques.

But when I have a student standing in front of me, sword in hand, what do I do? What do I say? How do I progress the training? I see none of that information in the Lichtenauer manuals.

But the coaching training I've received from Ken so far has addressed those precise questions. And that's why I support the program.

My support is not unequivocal. We need to see more info, before making a final judgement. And we need to pay attention to how the program evolves. But I'm optimistic about it's ability to be beneficial in the long run.

Cheers,
Steven

Steven,

I don't think anyone doubts the quality of the material. No one disputes that this is not needed. Everyone I know of very much appreciates Ken's hard work. He should be given credit for what he has accomplished for HEMA. The BIG objection, and it seems to be a vehement one, is that a good potion of HEMA want nothing to do with any fencing association certifying them . The feeling is that these official fencing bodies have made no investment in HEMA whatsoever. Therefore they have no business in promoting the appearance that we require their approval. They also have absolutely nothing to do with the various other disciplines and weapons which makes HEMA unique. If Ken started his own HEMA federation and certified instructors through that, I suspect that there would be little objection. In my opinion, you would see well earned praise and acceptance.

That seems to be the hang up and unfortunately a deal killer for many. Remove that obstacle and there would be little to stop it IMO

Edit: I should say that this is the viewpoint from A US perspective as I understand it. It may not reflect others feelings outside the USA.

[bigdummy]

There is no reason why HEMA fencers can't get sport fencing certifications for sport fencing. I'm sure it will enhance many aspects of their HEMA training approach (it might also detract from one or two but that doesn't really matter) improve fitness, help gain legitimacy and help attract new students.

But there is no reason on earth why sport fencing associations could or should issue HEMA fencing certifications.

Similarly, a Physical Education degree, a black belt in Akido, graduation from United States Marine Corps boot camp, or certification as a Soccer coach will probably all be beneficial training for any HEMA instructor. But if FIFA started issuing HEMA certifications I'd find it rather odd.

BD

[Dave B]

There is no reason why HEMA fencers can't get sport fencing certifications for sport fencing. I'm sure it will enhance many aspects of their HEMA training approach (it might also detract from one or two but that doesn't really matter) improve fitness, help gain legitimacy and help attract new students.

But there is no reason on earth why sport fencing associations could or should issue HEMA fencing certifications.

I agree 100%. And as I mentioned earlier, foil is so easy to learn* as it has very few actual techniques that anyone from any HEMA discipline aught to be able to pick it up quickly in order to then do the coaching bit.
In the unlikely event that I one day feel competent enough in anything to try to teach it, I would certainly try go to the BAF coach development workshops for level 1 foil first. I've seen people before and after doing that coach development before, and come back with a deeper understanding of time and measure that I am sure would carry over into other things along with some of the actual teaching skills.

* Of course I'm not belittling foil fencing by saying it is simple, because it has a limited range of techniques you have to be able to use them incredibly well to be good, but the basics are simple

[bigdummy]

BD

[Anders Linnard]

I agree with what BD and Harry. If the model of this deal was that they opened up their methodology to train us as coaches, giving certification simply in coaching or similar, I wouldn't disagree at all. That would be very generous of them. It's them handing out certification on longsword coaching that bugs me. Not because I think they necessarily will do a bad job at a teaching method, but because it is they who are doing it. We should be in control.

I've now heard the argument that someone had to do it and that people want this since there isn't a real one in place. Well, we are a relatively young community, some have come further than others, but not everything is in place. It's great that someone takes initiative, but the initiative should be to set up certification and coach training in our own organisations.

/Anders

[Michael Chidester]

The real reason why this is such an issue is because the USFCA is entering an empty marketplace and setting up shop. If instructor training were already available through every major HEMA federation and then the sport fencers appeared offering their own version, it would be a momentary curiosity and then most would forget about it--the only people who would probably enter such a program would be those with existing sport fencing connections, and it would likely remain a niche certification.

But the market's empty, no one else is doing this, and as things stand right now any American HEMA instructor who wants to improve his game will seek out the sport fencers to do so. I will do it without reservation as soon as I find myself in a situation where I'm teaching weekly classes again. No amount of talk or internet activism is going to make the USFCA program go away--it's already did. The only way those of you oppose the meddling of the sport fencing community can prevent this is to release competing products.

So I guess all I can say is that I look forward to seeing what the HEMA federations produce.

So, who among us has degrees in education or athletic coaching, and how soon can they get to work?

[harry tow]

If the model of this deal was that they opened up their methodology to train us as coaches, giving certification simply in coaching or similar, I wouldn't disagree at all./Anders

Fencing Coach Certification , Yes
HEMA Fencing Coach Certification, No

Let me add that if any fencing body reallly wants to support HEMA and it's efforts, let them contact the BFHS or HEMAC or HEMAA or any other HEMA body directly. I suspect that there might be a better spirit of cooperation if some of HEMA's bodies didn't feel like their authority was being usurped.

[admin]

The BFHS already offer certification in teaching, as do various other martial arts organisations.

[Michael Chidester]

Excuse me, I misspoke. I meant to say "instructor training".

[Anders Linnard]

If the model of this deal was that they opened up their methodology to train us as coaches, giving certification simply in coaching or similar, I wouldn't disagree at all./Anders

Fencing Coach Certification , Yes
HEMA Fencing Coach Certification, No
.

Exactly my point. Thank you for clarifying.
A

[Anders Linnard]

Double. Tapatalk...

[Anders Linnard]

The real reason why this is such an issue is because the USFCA is entering an empty marketplace and setting up shop. If instructor training were already available through every major HEMA federation and then the sport fencers appeared offering their own version, it would be a momentary curiosity and then most would forget about it--the only people who would probably enter such a program would be those with existing sport fencing connections, and it would likely remain a niche certification.

But the market's empty, no one else is doing this, and as things stand right now any American HEMA instructor who wants to improve his game will seek out the sport fencers to do so. I will do it without reservation as soon as I find myself in a situation where I'm teaching weekly classes again. No amount of talk or internet activism is going to make the USFCA program go away--it's already did. The only way those of you oppose the meddling of the sport fencing community can prevent this is to release competing products.

So I guess all I can say is that I look forward to seeing what the HEMA federations produce.

So, who among us has degrees in education or athletic coaching, and how soon can they get to work?

Yes and no. I don't care if sport fencers offer HEMA people sport fencing certifications. That would be swell. I don't like that they presume to certify our instructors in HEMA.

The jealousy argument is ridiculous, in reality this is an american problem and it will not affect Sweden for a number of reasons I won't go into. So I don't have anything to be jealous of. But the words you use are symptomatic. "Setting up shop" etc shows, or at least indicates, that this is a financially driven thing. They want to tap into our market and they see it simply as a market. Well, that makes things even worse. Will we see sport fencers, with "historical certificates", starting HEMA groups as a part of their offer, even if they know f*ck all about HEMA? Will you use the same argument (Oh, you are only pissed off because someone set up shop and commercialised the whole thing). They've done it before, so why not again?

I understand that you want training Michael and that is great. But you must understand that they cannot offer you a certificate in teaching HEMA, anymore than I can give them a certificate in teaching sport fencing. The community simply doesn't acknowledge their authority. You may end up risking your reputation, regardless of how great the actual training is (I am sure it will be great).

/Anders

[Dave B]

The BFHS already offer certification in teaching, as do various other martial arts organisations.

And the BFHS has many experienced instructors to draw on, including at least one I can think of who is already a level 2 modern fencing coach, and others with coaching experience in other martial arts, and Hema instructors who have found thier own successful styles, so I guess if they wanted to they could crib the best bits from those and offer some structured additional coach training which lead towards thier certification. That would seem like a step forward.

[Michael Chidester]

Yes and no. I don't care if sport fencers offer HEMA people sport fencing certifications. That would be swell. I don't like that they presume to certify our instructors in HEMA.

Yes, I totally get that. But my gut tells me that the miscommunication between the two sides of this debate is one of semantics and perception. The United States Fencing Coaches' Association will soon announce that they're introducing a historical fencing branch to operate alongside their existing classical fencing and olympic fencing programs. That's the only fact in play (on this side of the ocean, at least). Some of us view it as a positive development, the first step in a hopefully widespread push to raise the quality of instruction in HEMA. Others of us view it as the first volley in an all-out assault on the integrity of HEMA as a separate discipline from modern fencing. We're both looking at the same facts and adding huge amounts of interpretation, which is turning into an argument. That's what's baffling me. "Certify our instructors in HEMA" is an example of this. Nothing that Ken has revealed points to a certification in HEMA, and the real intent is "certifying HEMA instructors in coaching". But your wording reveals a lot about the fears that are in play here.

The jealousy argument is ridiculous,

It is ridiculous, and I don't think anyone involved is motivated by jealousy.

I understand that you want training Michael and that is great. But you must understand that they cannot offer you a certificate in teaching HEMA, anymore than I can give them a certificate in teaching sport fencing. The community simply doesn't acknowledge their authority. You may end up risking your reputation, regardless of how great the actual training is (I am sure it will be great).

I don't think anyone will go to them looking for a certification in HEMA. I would go to them looking for a certification in teaching. You know, I actually looked into getting a certification in coaching or education a few years ago, but they tended to require enrolling in a school and studying for a couple years so I dropped the idea. I looked into programs for martial arts instructors but they were all style-specific, so I couldn't try it because I don't know any Asian martial arts. I looked for MMA coaching certification, but I couldn't find anything that was in my area or could be done remotely. If this program had existed then, I would have signed up for it immediately.

Also, I don't have a reputation to damage so I'm not worried about that. Still, if I were certified I probably wouldn't make a big deal about it. HEMA isn't about credentials, at least not yet. I don't defer to PhDs on matters of translation, I doubt I'd defer to Maitres d'Armes on matters of interpretation.

[Steve Reich]

I would happily learn from coaches in the activities you listed, IF they were offering to train me in coaching. But they aren't (that I know of). I've thought about taking an EMA to compliment my German longsword study, but the schools I have looked at seem to want me to commit to studying their art (and I don't blame them) rather than welcome someone who only wants to cross-train.

That's the thing, about the traditional JSA model, it doesn't split the role of teacher and student with a clear line. You don't go to Shindo Muso Ryu (SMR) Jodo and take the "instructor's track" because it doesn't exist. Instead, the entire time you are a student, you are learning within a specific pedagogical framework with specific material that you internalize to the point that it is second nature. As a result, you eventually merge into an instructor role in certain situations while always being a student in others. I see great value in this, which is why I am a student of Shindo Muso Ryu. Incidentally, my sensei knows very well that I am also heavily involved in HEMA and has no problem with it, and I think that many (although not all) teachers would be the same way--so long as when you're in their class, you understand that you're a student of JSA, not an instructor (or student) of HEMA. But I digress...

But once again, the USFCA isn't (as far as I read it) planning to teach HEMA, only to teach/certify how to coach. IF they start allowing their sports coaches to teach HEMA as if it were just another sports fencing weapon, that would be different and something I would find worrying.

So my question to all of this is, if the USFCA isn't going to *teach* HEMA (which I don't think is entirely true, given that they are naming tracks for rapier and longsword), then why do they need to specifically target HEMA? That is, if you want to learn good classical-based fencing pedagogy, why not just enroll in their classical fencing program? This isn't entirely hypothetical; there are some very good HEMA instructors who came out of the San Jose University classical fencing program that did just that--certified in classical fencing as Maestri because being within the framework of a classical fencing pedagogy was beneficial to their development as instructors (and fencers).

Steve

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Michael!

The United States Fencing Coaches' Association will soon announce that they're introducing a historical fencing branch to operate alongside their existing classical fencing and olympic fencing programs. That's the only fact in play (on this side of the ocean, at least). Some of us view it as a positive development, the first step in a hopefully widespread push to raise the quality of instruction in HEMA. Others of us view it as the first volley in an all-out assault on the integrity of HEMA as a separate discipline from modern fencing.

---And then some of us are rather neutral, but wary. The way the whole thing has come about has only contributed to the HEMA communitie's seemingly inherent suspicion/distrust of all things Olympic Fencing oriented.

Nothing that Ken has revealed points to a certification in HEMA, and the real intent is "certifying HEMA instructors in coaching".

---That's not exactly true, and Ken hasn't bothered to clarify that point. When I made the same assumption, Jeremy S. pointed it out to me. Hopefully he won't mind me copying that post here:


Ken did allude to a few things:

Ken Mondschein wrote:
It will be essentially be much the same as the moniteur exam, encompassing safety, professionalism, effectively teaching basic technique and skill progression, etc.

Basic technique, as far as the USFCA and the USFA is concerned, usually includes footwork, basic attacks, parries and simple deceptions (feint-disengage, etc).
Jeremy S wrote:
[The certification] indicates that they can effectively teach the material.

The reputation of the USFCA in this country and around the world hinges on the abilities of the coaches that are certified, and that in large part means their knowledge of fencing in addition to their ability to teach it. If they start handing out certifications to people who don't have a firm grasp of the HEMA basics (and are able to teach it) their reputation suffers and they become the laughing stock of the international organizations. A certification that doesn't include testing the applicant's knowlege of HEMA in addition to their teaching abilities is worthless for the reasons Mike and others have pointed out.

That's why I asked what was to be included in the Historical Fencing Exam. Basic knowledge of terms? Whose? Italian, German, (Old) English, modern English translations? 15th century actions? 16th? Though I approve of the concept of certifying instructors and the USFCA has an excellent track record in the sport fencing community and a reputation for politics NOT being involved in the process, there are many questions and like Richard, I'm curious who other than Ken is working with the USFCA on this.

---Ken never responded to any of this.

Keith

[John H]

Here’s a few things I want to point out that I view as facts, like it or not:
The market is empty, HEMA is not offering this.
If HEMA does not get with the program and step up to certify something it will be left in the dust as others step in to do it.

I have a BS in Music Industry (for the lot of good it did me) I had to design that degree myself, until I found a school that was also developing the degree. I had to find a way to learn artist management, contract law, the workings of a record label, sound recording…Then I found a school that was doing it (fight on!) They did not get respect for the degree because they had a great history of students they got respect because I had Jerry Moss (A&M Records/ALMO Sounds – Herb Albert and Jerry Moss) teaching some classes and many others of that caliber. My contract law class was taught by the team that negotiated the largest (at that time) recording contract ever.

I’d next have to ask what is everyone’s opinion of Ken as a HEMA instructor? If you claim USFCA cannot certify HEMA because they know nothing of HEMA, what does Ken know? What do the other people teaching these classes know? What if they brought Leoni on? Basically I’m saying at this point of a young course work, they will be judged by the names they bring on staff. If HEMA wants to retain the ability to certify its own people we need to do it and not let another group do it for us. They will not wait for us make up our mind. Those with outside credentials will work with the outside groups they believe can help and if the USFCA will offer the class this year in a place I can actually take it, I’ll take it. If HEMA offers one as well I’ll take it too. If USFCA offers it and HEMA doesn’t for five years then HEMA will be falling behind.

I believe this should be viewed as a wakeup call to get moving.

[Mink]

I would go to them looking for a certification in teaching. You know, I actually looked into getting a certification in coaching or education a few years ago, but they tended to require enrolling in a school and studying for a couple years so I dropped the idea. I looked into programs for martial arts instructors but they were all style-specific, so I couldn't try it because I don't know any Asian martial arts. I looked for MMA coaching certification, but I couldn't find anything that was in my area or could be done remotely. If this program had existed then, I would have signed up for it immediately.

What exactly makes you think that getting a certification in teaching should not involve a couple of years of dedicated study in the subject matter and in teaching?

That's what I find most surprising in the whole thing. I don't know how it works in other countries, in France we have the "brevet d'état" which is more or less a certification in physical activity teaching that is not very hard by itself. But in order to pass it you have to reach a certain level in the sport in question. You can't separate the teaching certification from the specific sport certification. So you have to invest a significant training time to get that kind of diploma anyway.

The way the certification is described here, it seems people believe it should be easy to get and turn you into a great instructor without anyone ever having to formalize what is being taught. I can't see how that work. Or there is something I don't get.

Regards,