Messer size

[admin]

Looking through the various sources that deal with the messer it looks like there is a big variation in the sizes of messers shown. The Codex Wallerstein ones look massive. Of course this could be partly or entirely down to the artists' style, but I was wondering if anyone here has looked into the range of techniques shown in those different sources and noted whether there is any relation to the respective size of the weapon shown? Did larger messers use slightly different methods to smaller messers?

[SeanH]

I only study Leckuchner so my knowledge in this area is too limited to properly comment, but two things have stuck in the mind regarding messer size:

1) The entrusthaw is definitely affected by size, since a messer with a longer blade would be able to perform the technique in single time and strike the body. A shorter blade would not reach the opponent's body, and thus require you to perform the technique in two tempos, or strike at the opponent's arm.

2) One of the counter-counter-disarms requires that you are able to firmly grasp the opponent's pommel, and so the handle must clearly extend beyond a single-handed grip, yet not necessarily be two (or even 1 1/2) handed.

So for what I study, there seems to be a range for a handy single-handed size for the messer that is optimal. I assume when using different sizes you are expected to tailor your techniques accordingly.

[B. Cross]

Sorry for goind metric on you - messers have between 60 to 70 cm oflength, although I've seen some in museums with even a 55 cm blade. And they go iver the scale with this one, because as a more civilian weapon, their is not set standart. I've seen messers obviously made from just a piecemof steel that probably belonged to something else. The width also varies quite much, so the blade oresence is different i. Every messer. I don't think The art of the manuscripts always show the right size of the weapjn, especially Codex Wallerstein.

[Arto Fama]

The ones I have seen in musea in Holland differ in size. I have seen one that reminded me of the Codex Wallerstein Messers: length of a regular longsword in both grip and blade.

If i'm correct Martin Ensi from Dreynschlag is working on an article about messer specifications: he has a lot of information from different pieces in musea all over Europe. Perhaps contact him?

[Fab]

Enzi *is* definitely Mister Messer.

[admin]

Sorry for goind metric on you - messers have between 60 to 70 cm oflength, although I've seen some in museums with even a 55 cm blade.

Maybe you need to get to more museums! They have examples in Vienna with blades of around 120cm....
This is part of the problem - messers came in as wide a range of sizes as other types of sword, as shown by surviving examples.
It is entirely possible that the Codex Wallerstein messers were actually much longer than Talhoffer's or Durer's.

[B. Cross]

You mean a one handed messer? With 120 cm blade? I was talking about blade length only, seems I missed to note that.

[admin]

The massive messers in Vienna are obviously intended to be used two-handed. However, longsword-length messers exist, both surviving examples and in art, which could be used one-handed or two-handed. And of course many short messers could be used two-handed, as they have long handles. So stating that messers have blades of only between 60-70cm is clearly untrue. That might be an average, though I would be interested to see the statistics taken from originals to proove that.

[B. Cross]

I meant an average size for one-handed ones, sorry for not making it clear. And while they havemlong handles, using the second hand on the handle does not help much IMO. You lose an effective grappling tool for not much of a leverage power - not if it one of the short ones.

[Cutlery Penguin]

I meant an average size for one-handed ones, sorry for not making it clear. And while they havemlong handles, using the second hand on the handle does not help much IMO. You lose an effective grappling tool for not much of a leverage power - not if it one of the short ones.

So why do they have extra long handles? Not all messers do. What is it for if not to allow the possibility of using both hands?

[B. Cross]

As a matter of balancing them? If a messer is done just from a peace of still, maybe if you make a longer handle you can make at least the static balance good, like with a pommel - to slightly improve the balance.

[Andreas Engström]

As a matter of balancing them? If a messer is done just from a peace of still, maybe if you make a longer handle you can make at least the static balance good, like with a pommel - to slightly improve the balance.

Might be one part of the reason. Another might be that there are lots of messer plays where you hook your opponent's wrist, arm, or messer with the pommel end, and those plays are more or less impossible with a short handle.. Of course the balance issue may have been the original reason and the plays evolved to use the long handle. Hard to say.

-Andreas

[Fab]

IMO it's even more complicated than just this : "fashion" (of sorts) has also its influence in design, be it local (like the Swiss-ish Rugger) or more general (end plate, "beaked" pommel, hollow pommel etc...).

[admin]

Well, let's consider the name - messer.. it means knife. A medieval knife is usually made like that with two wooden scales rivetted to a broad tang. IMO the weapon's design at least partly comes from the old laws forbidding commoners from carrying swords around, but allowing them to carry knives. So they just made their knives bigger and bigger. I agree that the long handle is to give balance (in lieu of a pommel), and that then techniques came about to take advantage of that long handle. But we also know that big messers were sometimes used with two hands.



In short, messers come in a huge variety of sizes, from knife size right up to 'zweihander' size.

So, to revert to my original question - do people find that sources which show messers of a specific size work better with messers of that kind of size? Are there sources which work better with larger than average messers?

[Magnus Hagelberg]

was it Roland? from hammarborg who had a theory on why I:33 was done with a forward leaned possition, and that the bolognese style was more of an upright affair, due to the mechanics of reach, involved with having the difference in lenght of blade.

I would say that similar effects occur when you use messer - but unless you assume you have a buckler, you will have even less protection, and thus the length of the blade will make the shift more looking like tassacks or dussacks as you progress, and then end up with sabreuring.. and at the other end of the spectra you would be seeing more and more wrestling until you stand with a dagger.. and do dagger teachings.

just a coupple of cents.

[Carletto]

Sorry for goind metric on you - messers have between 60 to 70 cm oflength, although I've seen some in museums with even a 55 cm blade. And they go iver the scale with this one, because as a more civilian weapon, their is not set standart. I've seen messers obviously made from just a piecemof steel that probably belonged to something else. The width also varies quite much, so the blade oresence is different i. Every messer. I don't think The art of the manuscripts always show the right size of the weapjn, especially Codex Wallerstein.

I think 55 cm and 70 cm don't differ so much in techniques as 70 cm and 85 cm do. Thing is: there is an important change in what you can or cannot do, depending on wether your blade is shorter or longer than a human average arm, measured from the fist to the neck. If your blade is long anough to reach your opponent, while still your hilt is in front of his hilt, it's one thing, if not, it's another. Carry confort and drawing ease vary accordingly too.