Engaging guards for sabre across Europe

[admin]

The earliest forms of the circular cut diagram appear in Le Marchant and Angelo, I believe. Burton's guard positions are more or less variants of those shown in Henry Angelo's standard sword exercise of 1845, but I don't know where Burton took his cuts from (or whether he invented them).

[Ulrich von L...n]

Hungarian engaging guard from Saber Fencing by Lieutenant Raimund Sebetic(h) (published in 1886, Budapest, second edition).

Happy Christmas!

[admin]

This is great - is the rest of the treatise available online?

[Ulrich von L...n]

Unfortunately, no. Sooner or later I will post all available pictures in 19thC treatises topic and probably will write a short general overview.

[admin]

Thanks, that would great. From google searching I see that he published several books on swordsmanship and whilst some of them are available to buy as originals none of them seem to have been digitised yet. I see that the first edition of his 'Sabelfechten' book was published in 1873.

As you say, his engaging guard looks very similar to Waite's - just with the hand a bit higher and the rear hand behind the back rather than on the hip. Interesting to see that he fully grips the handle, rather than putting the thumb up the backstrap.

[TribalPunk]

The hungarian guard looks almost as if it is a combination of what Taylor refers to as the Inside guard and the Hangind Guard. Interesting that it utilizes a full grip with the thumb wrapped around the handle...though I have found that this hand position makes maintaining a hanging guard easies on the writs and forearm. Perhaps the Hungarian engaging guard is an attempt to gain the defense provided by a traditional hanging guard but not loose the ease of cutting that comes from a inside engaging guard.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Spanish engaging guard from Esgrima del sable written by Don Federico Gerona y Ensenat (1877).

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[Ulrich von L...n]

"Segunda posición. La guardia

Es la adoptada universalmente para prevenirse al combate, y como tal debe reunir las mejores condiciones para el ataque y la defensa. (Lamina III.) Pai-a colocaros en guardia desde.la primera posición, bajad el brazo derecho hasta que quede á la inmediación del cuerpo, con la mano delante y á la altura del codo, é inclinad el sable hacia la izquierda y adelante hasta tocar el del contrario; los pies colocadlos á medio metro uno de otro, adelantando al efecto el derecho; y por último, subid la mano izquierda y apoyadla graciosamente en su costado.

El cuerpo en esta posición debe gravitar igualmente sobre las dos piernas, proporcionando asi al tirador igual ventaja para avanzar ó retroceder, aprovechando ó esquivando un golpe."
(Page 21-22)

My Spanish is practically non-existent so I have to rely on Google translation.

Second position. The Guard
It is universally adopted to (prevent?) combat, and as such should have the best conditions for attack and defense (Plate III). (Pai-a) place you on guard desde.la first position,lower your right arm until to the immediacy of the body with the hand in front and at elbow height, and tilt the saber to the left and forward until it touches the opponent's; feet to place it half a meter from each other, advancing
to the right effect, and finally, go up the left hand and graciously apoyadla (place?) on its side.

The body in this position should gravitate equally on two legs, thus providing equal advantage to the fencer to advance or retreat, exploiting or dodging a blow.

[admin]

Strange, from looking at that manual I took the engaging guard to be seconde, not tierce as you have shown.

[Ulrich von L...n]

As I said before my Spanish is virtually zero, only my rudimentary French helps a little bit. So it would be foolish of me to say that the above guard is definitely THE engaging guard of Don Federico. It might be.

After "reading" some explanations on the following pages (29, 32-33) and understanding approx. 60% of it: I have a hunch that it is. Naturally it should be confirmed by someone who is much more proficient in Spanish.

Some rough translations + Plate IV.

[Ulrich von L...n]

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[Ulrich von L...n]

Page 29
"Los antiguos sostuvieron: unos, la conveniencia de cargar el peso del cuerpo sobre el pié derecho (Lám. IV, fig. 1.), fiando su defensa á una retirada más fácil-y aprovechando los golpes de arresto; y otros, por el contrario, creyeron deber apoyar la guardia en la pierna izquierda, fiando la defensa á la mano hasta el punto de ver malla retirada, y teniendo de este modo más facilidad para avanzar, (lám. IV, fig. 2.)

Ambas guardias son á su vez defectuosas; la primera, porque no permite afacar con es rapidez admirable que exigen los prontos movimientos de un adversario diestro; la segunda, por cerrar ridiculamente la defensa á la retirada, por una vana preocupación que hoy está completamente desechada.

Asi, pues, la guardia en su justo medio, debe ser y es en nuestra escuelai la que coloca al tirador en un verdadero equilibrio que le permite estar á la ofensiva tanto como á la defensiva, y aprovecharse en ambos casos de todos los recursos."

Tentative translation:
The ancients held: some convenience loading the weight on right foot (Plate IV, fig. 1.), Trusting his defense to a more easily removed and using shock arrest, and others, however, believed duty support in the left leg guard, trusting defense to the hand to the point of view mesh withdrawal, and having thus more easily forward, (Plate IV, fig. 2.)

Both guards are themselves defective, the first, it does not allow that fast AFAC admirable motions required by ready a skilled opponent, the second by defense ridiculously close to the withdrawal by an idle concern today is completely discarded.

So the guard in its proper environment, should be and is in our escuelai that puts the fencer in a true balance that allows be on the offensive and defensive, and both take advantage of all resources.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Page 32-33:
"Respecto á la posición (Fig. 2), que más que guardia, parece una parada, diré únicamente: que como retira el sable á gran altura colocando el brazo invertido, no permite al tirador los grandes recursos de los eficaces ataques repentinos que puede verificar desde nuestra guardia, que sitúa el sable en el centro de las líneas, desde donde puede acudir asimismo muy rápidamente a las paradas contra todos los golpes.

Contra los tiradores de la referida guardia (Figura 2), hay que ser cautos y esperar á que su brazo derecho se fatigue, lo cual les sucederá antes que á vosotros, y entonces vuestra será la ventaja. En tanto, podéis darles algún juego, atacando con precaución, y estando prontos para darles un golpe al brazo con rapidez, cuando al retiraros á la guardia ó á la parada os pretendan contestar ..."

Tentative translation:
With respect to the position (Fig. 2), which more than guard, like a parry, I will say only, that remove the sword as high placing investment arm, it (does not) allow the fencer great effective resources (against) sudden attacks, can verify from our guards, placing the sword in the center of the lines, where can also go very quickly to standing (parry) against all blows.

Against the fencers in that guard (Figure 2), one must be cautious and wait for their right arm to fatigue, which will happen before that to you and then your will be an advantage. Meanwhile, you can give them a game, attacking with caution, and being ready to give a blow to the arm quickly when to retire to the guard or you intend to stop answering...

[Ulrich von L...n]

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The engaging guard from Samu Chappon's book The Theory of the Art of Fencing (1892). This particular picture is from a Hungarian blog, the author has started to translate some - most interesting - parts of this Hungarian fencing manual.

http://kardazelet.blogspot.hu/2012/09/theory-of-art-of-fencig-1-basic-guard.html

[admin]

Very strange! Like an incredibly high tierce.

[John H]

basic guard.jpg

You mentioned before that this was a traditional hungarian way to grip the blade. Can you expand on this, I believe we westerners call it posting, but was this just a position to get an extra inch or was it common when bringing the blade back on line in the lower guards as well?

[Chris Holzman]

basic guard.jpg

You mentioned before that this was a traditional hungarian way to grip the blade. Can you expand on this, I believe we westerners call it posting, but was this just a position to get an extra inch or was it common when bringing the blade back on line in the lower guards as well?

With Hungarian sabres this isn't atypical at all - nor with any of the eagle head shaped sabre grip ends. Particularly on the Hungarian sabres with a cant in the hilt, such a grip will generally put the hand and point in direct like for easy thrusting. At the same time, it'll set the last third of the blade forward of the hand, and give a really aggressive cutting angle.

Interestingly, while these guys have their hands slightly higher, some of the Italian sources, like Pecoraro/Pessina in 1912 show a terza guard with a similar wrist rotation/knuckle-bow position that the Italians would call hand in first-in-second, but with the wrist lower and the arm slightly more bent. Quite uncomfortable in my opinion. I much prefer the hand in second-in-third while in guard of terza.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Very strange!...

... Quite uncomfortable in my opinion.

Indeed. I'm not a fan of Chappon's engaging guard.

The quality of drawings is quite amateurish, so I suspect that the author drew those himself. This will become apparent from other drawings, when it is difficult to figure out the exact hand position etc. Chappon's book was published three times: in 1892, 1904 and 1911. The last edition was published with photos, so it is much easier to work with the third edition.

On Tuesday or Wednesday I will go to the local library, they have a reprinted (1996) version of this book, so I will be able to reread it.

[Ulrich von L...n]

You mentioned before that this was a traditional Hungarian way to grip the blade.

AFAIK this way to grip the sabre was popular in Hungary between 1880-1910, probably even earlier. You could find it in Chappon's books (1892, 1911, till now I haven't got an opportunity to examine the second edition, 1904), in Sztrakay's pamphlet (1895). But even in 1902 some less known fencing masters were against it.

The purpose of this peculiar way of gripping the sabre? Probably "to get an extra inch".

[Ulrich von L...n]

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Engaging guard from the Regulations of Royal Hungarian Cavalry (January 8, 1900)
(Part I, Third edition: 1917)