Scabbard on the back

[Hugh]

A friend and I were discussing assorted scabbards and mused about never having seen any historical evidence for the oft depicted "scabbard on the back" from which one draws their sword over their shoulder.
We often see it in fantasy movies/artwork and occasionally in supposedly "historical" films but did it ever happen?

I was wondering if anyone has ANY evidence of such a thing, historically?


Thanks

[Bladerunner]

As far as I know there is none. Some bigger swords carried on the shoulder don't count. Sheathed swords are either on the waist or in the hand.

[Phil C]

Best I can think of is Bowie knives carried down the back of the neck on cords or stuffed between the waistcoat collar and shirt. Fairbairn suggetsed this carry method too.

[Jonathan Waller]

Never seen it. It's appearance in Fantasy art and films and so called historical movies is down to the "it looks cool" factor.
JW

[admin]

I can't think of any historical example.

[Thearos]

Does the Chinese "big sabre" (Dadao) worn slung on the back in the 1930s (along with firearms) count ?

E.g.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index. ... -20992%3B/

http://internalmartialart.wordpress.com ... ii-da-dao/

[Hugh]

Thanks guys. I suppose the Dadao examples do count but I was hoping there would be a European medieval or renaissance example. Guess not.
Ah well, I can't use the "it looks cool" factor as a good enough excuse so I'll just have to make a more normal scabbard for my new sword

[admin]

Well look on the bright side, at least you'll be able to unsheath it without looking like a retard now.

[Lyceum]

Does the Chinese "big sabre" (Dadao) worn slung on the back in the 1930s (along with firearms) count ?

E.g.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index. ... -20992%3B/

http://internalmartialart.wordpress.com ... ii-da-dao/

The second link is interesting, not the advertisement for a book of techniques but the comment about the coaches teaching a limited amount of techniques. Sort of like what we saw in early Judo history and even in Gatka i.e take a few techniques and drill them well.

I suppose you'd find the same historically, the difference between a random soldier and a fully professional well trained swordsman with decades in the salle.

Also, dear op, don't wear it on your back. :s It looks weird and is impractical. Unless you're a ninja. In which case sure whatever.

I'm not suprised at the lack of historical evidence supporting this, scabbards can be hassle enough as it is which is probably why we have lots of art showing either naked blades or scabbards in manu. Although still, it is suprising how fast one can draw and cut so I wonder how big a hindrance it really was? I mean what if you had to scale a wall or some other such task?

[T Gallagher]

Nickolas Lloyd gives a very good presentation on this subject on his Lindybeige Youtube channel. Just about all of his stuff is pretty good.
His conclusion was that you can't really draw anything larger than a bowie knife from your back so people didn't put anything larger there.

Tim

[Wolfgang Ritter]

Don't go Conan/BRaveheart/13th Warrior/whatever-style, it's wrong. No historical evidence and (i.e maybe because) no practical value.
You cannot draw a sword properly out AND you cannot put it BACK in the scabbard worn on the back. GO to a renaissance fair or any movieset and have them draw the sword and put them back into the scabbard on their back......hilarious.
If the scabbard and belt/hanger are done proper, it's no big deal to carry a sword on the side, even when forced to get over obstacles.

[Hugh]

Thanks everyone. I suppose Ninjas are often portrayed with the scabbards on their backs, which actually seems reasonable considering the size of their usual swords and activities they might be doing... but i studied Togakure Ryu Ninjustsu for a few years and all the sword techniques worked from a sword sheathed at the hip.

@ Admin and Lyceum: I was only joking. I wouldn't actually make a back scabbard. It's a longsword (and a long-ish one at that) so unless i could stretch my arm two feet longer, I couldn't get the damn thing out!

[Thearos]

I suppose the Chinese infantrymen in the 1930s are "carrying" their swords into battle on their backs, not "wearing" them...

Also: if you have to lie down to shoot a rifle (rather common), better stuff on your back than at your hip.

[admin]

Though Afghan tribesmen, Indian sepoys and Japanese infantry all used long firearms and carried swords at their hip. Afghan tribesmen in particular often shot from the prone position with bipods attached to their 'jezzails'.

[the_last_alive]

Also: if you have to lie down to shoot a rifle (rather common), better stuff on your back than at your hip.

Wouldn't the hilt get in the way of your head while aiming though?

[Thearos]

In Ridley Scott's "Duellists", Feraud has his sword on his back during the retreat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07z9bhPLdvQ

But I don't know if it's historical (RS might have taken it from a visual source), and of course this is not combat, it's Feraud the cavalryman trying to keep his sword out of his legs while trudging back to the Niemen.

Edited: Feraud appears around 2:05

[admin]

I'm afraid that Ridley Scott films do not qualify as historical and should not be used as historical sources.

[Thearos]

Duellists-- the subject of a thread in this forum-- it's beautifully researched visually, and composed from visual period sources; he seems well advised, even if MrAdmin points out the shortcomings in the fencing. The visual element, in any case, is easy to get right in historical movies, as opposed to talking or moving or doing...



Perhaps he was working from a visual source in this case ? Goya on Spain ? Sketches from 1812 ?

Edit: think of the scenes where Feraud is a "demi-solde", cashiered on half-pay, at the end: the coats, hats, all look like Daumier lithographs of this type of scoundrels.

[Jonathan Waller]

However well researched a movie is a best a secondary source. I do think I have seen a period sketch similar to what is depicted in the movie but as I can't remember where I saw it, it doesn't count

[Thearos]

If it's jogged your memory, the clip has fulfilled its role. In the meantime: "The unusually well researched and visually sensitive motion picture "Duellists" by Ridley Scott shows a man wearing a sabre on his back during the retreat to the Niemen in 1812, which might be based on a contemporary source".

I quickly looked at Goya, Disasters of War (pretty harrowing), and all swords are worn hanging from belt. So not from there.