New Knight Shop Sparring Gloves

[craftyfighter]

However, the fingertips we used on them sound like what you guys seem to be looking for and more importantly, are viable

Yes please

+1 I'm gonna add my voice to this. So these look great and I can't wait to see them in the flesh. My only criticism is that they need more enclosed fingertips (especially the thumb). Hopefully these are areas that can be improved in the production model...if not perhaps these thumb and finger tip plates could be made available as aftermarket products to allow users to upgrade their protection.

[Dangermouse]

Ok, mods are being made to the gloves as I type. Changes should be made in time for FightCamp.

Now then, I am interested in making a mitten type gauntlet in time for FightCamp. I know that they offer more protection and that they were used in the day. However, how restrictive are they? i.e. are there certain techniques that can not be pulled off in them? Perhaps the reason the majority of people want fingered gauntlets.

[Dangermouse]

Hey guys

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I have just come out of a very positive design meeting

Finger lames will be more rounded and modernised. Finger tips will be more encasing and we have had some very good ideas on the cuff front.

All good stuff

[admin]

Great stuff

[Motley]

Brian, be careful of to much design by committee before you get out a prototype... Your initial pictures looked quite good.

I think mitten style protection should be ok as long as it is still possible to grip the sword correctly, not just in a hammer grip of death. The big question is closing to grips and let's face it you should not be separating your fingers there anyway or you risk hurting them.

I am not going to make specific design suggestions I think what you really need are requirements IMHO the biggest danger is making them too bulky. This goes for all styles, think of Fiore's hilt grabbing and Stretto plays, can you still do these while wearing this protection? If not what is the point?

Regards,
Dan.

[Angantyr]

Just one small thing (as about everything else I can think of is already said)
As one who often ends up crashing into and wrestling people I would like you to think about and test how they will do in a wrestling situation. It is a part of the fight where one might end up and gloves have a tendency to be so bulky that wrestling is difficult (holds are made more difficult, you end up getting your hands caught up, the gloves do not let you get a decent grip and so on) and also I am wondering about the safety of using these in grappling (cuts, bruises and so on).
Not extremely important, but important enough for me!

[Bulot]

Just one small thing (as about everything else I can think of is already said)
As one who often ends up crashing into and wrestling people I would like you to think about and test how they will do in a wrestling situation. It is a part of the fight where one might end up and gloves have a tendency to be so bulky that wrestling is difficult (holds are made more difficult, you end up getting your hands caught up, the gloves do not let you get a decent grip and so on) and also I am wondering about the safety of using these in grappling (cuts, bruises and so on).
Not extremely important, but important enough for me!

This.
Additionnaly, I'm a bit worried that the shape of the cuff would make grappling quite difficult (especially plays in Fiore involving wrist grabbing and twisting.

[craftyfighter]

Hey guys

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I have just come out of a very positive design meeting

Finger lames will be more rounded and modernised. Finger tips will be more encasing and we have had some very good ideas on the cuff front.

All good stuff

Sounds good...your efforts are appreciated.

[KeithFarrell]

Fantastic. You guys at the Knight Shop are amazing

[nathan]

Its truly brilliant to have something designed for us yet by people who listen to the end users input fantastic.
had a thought last night would it be possible to have a print out or something on the site with the scale of each glove so you could simply put your hand over it and see it it would fit? It would make things super easy on sizing the correct glove and easy enough to do.
Also i do wonder on the grappling aspect i find flared cuffs easy to get caught by people and yanked on etc.
Still fantastic work.

[Cutlery Penguin]

I'm impressed but the look of them, but as a group that does renaissance and newer arts I don't think the style works for us. I'd rather see a slightly longer cuff with a much less pronounced angle to it.

Difficult to explain on a forum, I'll see if I can be more clear when I have a beer in hand at Fightcamp.

[Hugh]

my 2 cents worth...

Pain is good.
Injury is bad.

excellent prototype, effective design with need of a few tweaks. The tournament on Saturday was an excellent test (and lots of fun).
Rounded lames on, at least the index finger, would be good. My hands fared very well (some pain on the hard hits but no injury) but I received one or two cracks on the inside of my index knuckle that I can still feel today. Even a thicker bit of leather or a bit of padding would do the job.
and of course, the fastening at the wrist needs a little work.

@ dagermouse/bryan: Re wrist fastening - I mentioned to one of the design guys on saturday that a wrap-around (or thread "through and fold back") velcro strap might do the job quite well. Maybe better than a buckle as tightness can be easily adjusted and can be fastened/unfastened by someone wearing gloves.

@ bladerunner: Re padding on the fingers - they seem pretty good as they are. there are two layers beneath the plates; one of leather (the glove) and one of a lightly padded fabric (though I thought it was leather at the time). That seems to absorb and spread the impacts well... we were just using nylons though.
That said, we were hitting each other quite hard.

@ bulot & angantyr & nathan: Re grappling - I did a little grabbing and grappling and didn't encounter any problems (except the velcro came undone on one of the gloves). They aren't too bulky, though I can see the flared cuff might seem cause for concern at a glance.
That said, my aesthetic and practical preference preference would be for a longer, flexible cuff (wide enough to fit over other forearm protection. But that's just me

[admin]

I agree with the cuff remark and especially with steel, because the inside of the wrist in particular can be very vulnerable, because of course the forearm guards can't cover that and maintain mobility. Something like the Wisby cuffs in modern materials would seem appropriate - equally, I think several brands of riot gloves already have suitable padded/leather cuffs. This would also help the glove to look a lot less like a stereotypical 14th century gauntlet, and I suspect would help to keep it on more easily - good idea regarding the strap+velcro.

[Dave B]

Ok, mods are being made to the gloves as I type. Changes should be made in time for FightCamp.

Now then, I am interested in making a mitten type gauntlet in time for FightCamp. I know that they offer more protection and that they were used in the day. However, how restrictive are they? i.e. are there certain techniques that can not be pulled off in them? Perhaps the reason the majority of people want fingered gauntlets.

I love my steel gauntlets, and they work really well. Mine were specifically made for pole weapons and have a long cuff, so not perfect for sword work, but pretty good. I'll probably be bringing them for Wolfgang's 'armourded fighting' class if I can get the rest of my armour working, so if you want a pair of steel to look at / play with I'll bring them over.

[Bladerunner]

@ bladerunner: Re padding on the fingers - they seem pretty good as they are. there are two layers beneath the plates; one of leather (the glove) and one of a lightly padded fabric (though I thought it was leather at the time). That seems to absorb and spread the impacts well... we were just using nylons though.
That said, we were hitting each other quite hard.

Brian mentioned no padding. Leather glove only prevents chaffing, not dampening of the hit. Don't know what fabric are the lames riveted to, but if it's supposed to hold the rivet then most likely it isn't proper padding material.
This setup may work for synthetics, but for steel I really recommend at least 3mm of decent foam.

[Hugh]

@bladerunner - Well, if you have fairly skinny hands, you could always slot a bit of cut-to-shape thin padding into the glove.
Maybe a trimmed odour eater insole (might help deal with sweaty smells too.... hmmm... Might be onto something there )

[Bladerunner]

@Hugh. Lets get detailed. If a thin blade hits the glove at 90 deg. angle to the finger it compresses the padding until it hits the bone with remaining impact. The thicker padding the more force is dissipated from the blow. The idea of hardshell protection is to spread the force of the hit over the surface of the plate before it hits the target. The bigger area the more force is being dissipated. It works even better with the padding which is designed to dampen the impact of blunt items. The hardshell spreads the force then the padding dampens it.
Brians gloves have small lames on the fingers. They overlap so, that a sword hit is spread over two of them on each finger (90 deg. angle). That gives us the area of about one square inch. That helps to prevent cracking and splinting of the bone and reduces damage of the soft tissues to bruising. It doesn't prevent crushing the tissues and bones by impact similar to a blunt trauma (planck, pipe, hammer etc). Remember - the force of the hit is the same, it's just changing the character of injury received. Padding on fingers (especially fingertips) is a must for steel sparring. It's easy to incorporate into the production glove and gives much more protection then lames alone. The gloves are very good. There's room for improvement depending on cost and manufacturing issues but they're on the right track. Without padded fingers, however there still will be serious injuries at a rate comparable to lacrosse equipment.

BTW - is there any evidence of total lack of padding in historical gauntlets? How many preserved pairs still have original glove?

[admin]

That's all a bit theoretical and isn't actually detailed enough for the reality. In reality it all depends on which part of the finger is hit, at what angle and whether the finger is bent or straight. In short, the real problem with this type of scale finger armour is impact at the point of the joints, because without padding the impact goes straight through the plate and into the joint. Because the plate is resting directly on the joint. That is why many gauntlets have domed plates over the joints, so that they form a bridge across to the flat plates (just like arm or leg armour in miniature). If you're going to use flat plates on the fingers, as here, then you need some degree of padding. Simple as that.

[Bladerunner]

It's simplifying the issue, of course. I was just trying to explain the necessity of the padding in this design.

[Dangermouse]

BTW - is there any evidence of total lack of padding in historical gauntlets? How many preserved pairs still have original glove?

Hello Chaps

I have just got back from another handling session at the Armouries. I spent a long time examining the originals and had a very good chat with the armour curator there about this.

I was shown original 15th Century tournament armour (made as tournament armour for foot combat I might add - forgot the name now - it was long an foreign but can find out) with fingered gauntlets with the original leather gloves still intact. No padding at all. Was shown another 2 pairs of gauntlets from the period with gloves in tact. No padding. Was shown mitten style gauntlets (made for the battlefield) retaining the leather mitten. No padding.

Now I was told that earlier gauntlets such as the Churburg gauntlets had evidence of as many as 9 layers of padding in them so it was not unknown to pad gauntlets in this earlier period BUT the overlapping plates of the 15th century gauntlets gave such good protection that they negated the need for padding.

I do appreciate that 3 pairs of gauntlets without padding is hardly proof that this was the case across medieval Europe. But of the 3 they had in the stores with original linings, 100% of them were not padded.