French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Original artifacts, written sources, historical art work. Ancient to c.1900.
Open to public view.

French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Ariella Elema » 03 Feb 2011 19:13

Now here's an interesting picture of a fourteenth-century seal.*

Image

The words say S[CEAU] HENRI CHAILLAU L[']ESCREMISSEEUR DE CHAALONS. Seal of Henri Chaillau, the Fencer of Châlons.

The pick is a baculus cornutus, the weapon of a judicial duellist. It's only the second one I've seen from a Continental source. There are some other interesting details too. The dash between the letters C and R in ESCREMISSEEUR isn't part of the text. It looks like a spike on the bottom of the shield. It took me longer to realize it, but I think the scroll-y stuff on top isn't just for decoration either. I think those are hooks attached to the shield. I have a theory that this is an early version of a duelling shield, à la Talhoffer, which is weird because I didn't know they existed outside southern Germany and the fifteenth century.

According to this catalogue, the seal dates from the fourteenth century. The book claims that it belonged to an executioner. I don't know if that's a mistake or whether the seal is perhaps attached to a document that sheds some more light on it. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more research. I'm not even sure which Châlons it comes from.

Fabrice, have you run across anything like this before?

*Well, technically this one is from the twenty-first century. It's a reproduction made by these folks, who would like to sell it to you. I haven't found a picture of the original yet.
Ariella
User avatar
Ariella Elema
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 31 May 2006 18:23
Location: Toronto

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby admin » 03 Feb 2011 22:18

As always Ariella, great find! 8)
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

I like swords more than you.
User avatar
admin
Emperor
 
Posts: 35424
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 16:28
Location: Guildford, Surrey, England.

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Fab » 07 Feb 2011 14:54

Very cool find Ariella.

No, I gaven't seen anything like this before - but I must confess I have yet to spen more time studying seals. If this one exists, then there must be others.

The pick-like weapon is commonly seen on contemporary artwork for judical fights between commoners - but Burgundian sources mention that they had to hold their shield point up, as point down was reserved to the nobility. It might well be that specific duelling shields, albeit different from the Franconian ones, were used elsewhere.
User avatar
Fab
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 8370
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 13:54
Location: Under the Hat of Awesomeness.

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby admin » 07 Feb 2011 15:01

The English shields for judicial duels between commoners appear to have always been rectagular and boss-held, like a smaller Roman scutum. But the picks look the same:

Image
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

I like swords more than you.
User avatar
admin
Emperor
 
Posts: 35424
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 16:28
Location: Guildford, Surrey, England.

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Colin F. » 07 Feb 2011 17:48

I meant to post on a thread a while ago with a picture from the windows at York Minster with small square shields, but the same wooden picks...

Ohhh maybe not, here it is!!!

Image
SG6 - Bradford - Instructor

Those old masters taught fighting, we teach nothing but fencing nowadays. - Alfred Hutton, The Swordsman
Colin F.
Colonel
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: 02 Jun 2008 13:04
Location: Bradford

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Fab » 07 Feb 2011 18:31

Cool :)
User avatar
Fab
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 8370
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 13:54
Location: Under the Hat of Awesomeness.

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Payson » 07 Feb 2011 20:28

Hey Colin, What window is that? Is it St.William's? I can try to get a better copy of it.
User avatar
Payson
Sergeant
 
Posts: 120
Joined: 21 Oct 2010 22:37
Location: York, UK

Postby Colin F. » 07 Feb 2011 21:48

Not a clue, it was a few years ago during one of the restorations :-)
SG6 - Bradford - Instructor

Those old masters taught fighting, we teach nothing but fencing nowadays. - Alfred Hutton, The Swordsman
Colin F.
Colonel
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: 02 Jun 2008 13:04
Location: Bradford

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Fab » 07 Feb 2011 23:47

They're wearing specific clothing and even their haircut seem to imply a special preparation for this fight. Really cool stuff.
User avatar
Fab
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 8370
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 13:54
Location: Under the Hat of Awesomeness.

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Ariella Elema » 08 Feb 2011 18:41

Payson, that is indeed the Saint William window in York Minster. I made a post about it a couple of years ago. The image links seem to have died, but I think you can still find the images on the Corpus Vitrearum Medii Aevi site here.

Matt's image is the fight between Walter Blowberme and Hamo le Stare in 1249 from the English Curia Regis rolls.

Picks and short bowl haircuts are quite commonly referenced in English judicial duels. There's a good article that pulls all the references together: M.J. Russell, "Accoutrements of Battle" Law Quarterly Review 99 (1983), pp. 432-442. Sadly it's not available online yet.

The one other French image of people fighting with picks that I've seen also involves short bowl haircuts and tight clothing. It's an illustration in one of the copies of Beaumanoir's Coutumes de Beauvaisis. However, in that picture, the duellists seem to have quite standard looking heater shields.
Ariella
User avatar
Ariella Elema
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 31 May 2006 18:23
Location: Toronto

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby bigdummy » 08 Feb 2011 18:49

First of all this is briliant, thanks Aerilla, matt, and colin

A tonsure or short haircut makes it harder to grab the other persons hair (speaking of which, I wonder if womens heads were shaved when females fought?) same for the clothing, and also prevents hiding things. This all helps keep the fight even.

Some questions:

In these earlier specific judicial combats described above, is there information available as to what the outcome was, and what was the aftermath? I'm trying to understand if the duel was more simply to determine guilt (like a trial by ordeal or a baphrobe) or if it was also part of the punishment for the guilty. I gather this varied from place to place, but in records you have seen, was the winner allowed to dispatch his or her opponent or simply to fight until one person won the match after which further punishment would be meted out to the defeated party?

And finally, my understanding is that judicial combats were normally a way to resolve accusations by one person against another. Are there other circumstances? Someone here a while back (I think it was Roland?) described some records of a convicted felon travelling around England fighting other criminals on behalf of the crown, I assume this would also fit the accuser fighting the accused model. I'm interested in what the other parameters were.

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15154
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 19:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby bigdummy » 08 Feb 2011 19:02

Ariella Elema wrote:Now here's an interesting picture of a fourteenth-century seal.*

Image

The words say S[CEAU] HENRI CHAILLAU L[']ESCREMISSEEUR DE CHAALONS. Seal of Henri Chaillau, the Fencer of Châlons.

The book claims that it belonged to an executioner. I don't know if that's a mistake or whether the seal is perhaps attached to a document that sheds some more light on it. It looks like I'm going to have to do some more research. I'm not even sure which Châlons it comes from.


I think it's interesting how a 'fencer' would have specialized judicial combat kit on his seal. I wonder if this "fencer from Chalons" is advertising his services as a trainer for someone caught up in a judicial combat, and / or as a 'kemphe' i.e. one of those disreputable type people who would fight on behalf of a litigant.

It would have to be rather dismaying to find yourself facing a ringer under such circumstances. You are challenged by Justin Bebier for libel, accept the challenge and then find you are going to face, say, Axel Petterson ... ;)

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15154
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 19:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Ariella Elema » 08 Feb 2011 20:27

A tonsure or short haircut makes it harder to grab the other persons hair (speaking of which, I wonder if womens heads were shaved when females fought?) same for the clothing, and also prevents hiding things. This all helps keep the fight even.


Some of the sources mention shaving champions for just this reason. In some cases, duellists were also allowed to grease themselves to make grappling more difficult. The few references I've seen to women in judicial duels don't seem to show or mention hair cutting. Cutting a woman's hair was a form of shaming, so it was probably avoided. Talhoffer shows the woman wearing a tight hood and in Kal she has loose hair. Diebold Schilling shows her wearing an elaborate fifteenth-century head dress. All of these depictions are probably based on a single case, which happened in 1288.

In these earlier specific judicial combats described above, is there information available as to what the outcome was, and what was the aftermath? I'm trying to understand if the duel was more simply to determine guilt (like a trial by ordeal or a baphrobe) or if it was also part of the punishment for the guilty. I gather this varied from place to place, but in records you have seen, was the winner allowed to dispatch his or her opponent or simply to fight until one person won the match after which further punishment would be meted out to the defeated party?


Judicial duels were a form of trial rather than a form of sentencing. If you want to go a step deeper into the abstract theory, some German scholars have debated whether they represented a beweismittel (a form of proof), or merely an entscheidungsmittel, a way to reach a decision. Battles usually continued until one combatant gave in. There was no extra credit for doing the executioner's work for him. In practice, I've found that in England and France the fatalities usually occurred in duels between nobles, who were permitted to fight with sharp weapons, while in commoners' battles with clubs or picks, one party usually gave up. Criminal trials usually resulted in the hanging of one of the parties, but "civil" cases were fought by champions and usually did not. The losing champion "lost his law," as they would say at the time. He was not allowed to champion anyone else or testify in court ever again, and he was subject to a number of other legal disabilities.

And finally, my understanding is that judicial combats were normally a way to resolve accusations by one person against another. Are there other circumstances? Someone here a while back (I think it was Roland?) described some records of a convicted felon travelling around England fighting other criminals on behalf of the crown, I assume this would also fit the accuser fighting the accused model. I'm interested in what the other parameters were.


Trial by battle required an accuser to step forward and challenge the defendant. For a while the English royal courts experimented with a system of approvers. An approver was a convicted felon who agreed to accuse his accomplices, and fight them if necessary, in return for being allowed to leave the kingdom. Awhile back I found a reference to an approver who was fighting battles all over England against people he probably didn't know and basically acting like an early crown attorney. That might be the post you're thinking about.

Most of the time, battles that were pledged were never fought. The process worked much the same way a strike works in modern labour law. It was an incentive to negotiate. The idea was to reach a private settlement out of court before the final showdown.
Ariella
User avatar
Ariella Elema
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 31 May 2006 18:23
Location: Toronto

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby bigdummy » 08 Feb 2011 21:00

Ariella Elema wrote: Criminal trials usually resulted in the hanging of one of the parties, but "civil" cases were fought by champions and usually did not. The losing champion "lost his law," as they would say at the time. He was not allowed to champion anyone else or testify in court ever again, and he was subject to a number of other legal disabilities.


Were "civil" cases always fought by champions and never by the litigants? Can you elaborate a bit more on the champion and their punishment for defeat? I wonder if that then was the occupation of our Châlons fencer.

Trial by battle required an accuser to step forward and challenge the defendant. For a while the English royal courts experimented with a system of approvers. An approver was a convicted felon who agreed to accuse his accomplices, and fight them if necessary, in return for being allowed to leave the kingdom. Awhile back I found a reference to an approver who was fighting battles all over England against people he probably didn't know and basically acting like an early crown attorney. That might be the post you're thinking about.


Yes, indeed it was sorry I forgot that was your post. :oops:

Most of the time, battles that were pledged were never fought. The process worked much the same way a strike works in modern labour law. It was an incentive to negotiate. The idea was to reach a private settlement out of court before the final showdown.


Yes, of course. This was also the case with private Duels here in New Orleans during the antebellum era, until the Americans showed up who didn't understand the subtleties of the system and death rates suddenly shot up largely due to Americans ('kaintuks' as we call them here) insisting on fighting duels with shotguns, squirrel rifles and etc., leading to a slew of anti-deuling legislation and the gradual end of the dueling era here.

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15154
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 19:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Payson » 08 Feb 2011 21:20

The Glaziers of the York Trust are the ones who restored the St. Williams window a couple years ago. Their workshop is upstairs from ours so I went up and got some info off them. I hadn't read Ariella's post titled:

A duelling miracle (English judicial duel 1441)

So other than what she has already said the info I got was that the duel represented one of St William's miracles. His other main miracle was a bit dubious having to do with witnessing the collapse of a bridge in York and as a result of his furious prayers no one died. St William is York's only saint and his tomb was quite an attraction for medieval "pilgrims" (read: "tourists").

But back to the judicial duel the glaziers said that normally, miracles only take up one or two panes, max. This one is spread out over 5 panes. Also that Christopher Norton, who is a major medieval scholar up here in York, has written a book on the window which I had a brief glance at today in the Glaziers studio. It is called:

St William of York
Christopher Norton
York Medieval Press (23 May 2006)

Here is a link to Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/St-William-York ... 1903153174

It has 10 or 12 pages on this duel. I'll look for it in our library tomorrow.

The only other new bit of info from the glaziers is that the picks are depicted in yellow/brown which is the glazing convention for depicting wood. Metal is depicted in blue/grey.

Lastly, there is an older depiction of a judicial duel in the glass of the Chapter House of York Minster . It is supposedly harder to see, I'll have a look

We are working on the restoration of the ornamental stonework on the pinnacles of the North Quire Transept which contains the St. William's window. There are 3 double grotesques to carve and if I'm lucky
enough to get one I know what my two figures will be!
User avatar
Payson
Sergeant
 
Posts: 120
Joined: 21 Oct 2010 22:37
Location: York, UK

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby bigdummy » 08 Feb 2011 21:49

Great stuff payson thanks for chiming in with that
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15154
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 19:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Motley » 09 Feb 2011 19:36

Payson wrote:
We are working on the restoration of the ornamental stonework on the pinnacles of the North Quire Transept which contains the St. William's window. There are 3 double grotesques to carve and if I'm lucky
enough to get one I know what my two figures will be!


you must have an awesome job! You will post picks won't you?
Dan Sellars
Context is everything
User avatar
Motley
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2579
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 16:04
Location: Great White North

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Ariella Elema » 10 Feb 2011 20:54

Payson, thank you so much for that reference. I didn't know about that book.

Fab, you wouldn't by any chance remember the reference for that upside-down shield, would you?
Ariella
User avatar
Ariella Elema
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 31 May 2006 18:23
Location: Toronto

Re: French (Burgundian?) Duelling Weapons, 14th c.

Postby Ariella Elema » 10 Feb 2011 21:21

bigdummy wrote:Were "civil" cases always fought by champions and never by the litigants? Can you elaborate a bit more on the champion and their punishment for defeat? I wonder if that then was the occupation of our Châlons fencer


Strictly speaking, courts didn't distinguish between criminal and civil cases for most of the Middle Ages. Rulers and their rudimentary governments had not yet really developed the ability to investigate and prosecute crime, unless their own interests were involved. A victim of crime or his next of kin had to bring the case to court themselves, much like a civil lawsuit, until forms of public prosecution started to develop in the thirteenth century. Nevertheless, medieval courts seem to have distinguished between disputes over the possession of property (including some cases that we would classify as theft), and criminal cases.

"Civil" cases over property could be fought by substitute champions and almost always were. In criminal cases, various classes of people, like women, clergy, the elderly and the disabled, could theoretically have a champion represent them, but in most of these cases the court simply chose an alternate method of proof. Fights between champions tended to be more leisurely and only rarely resulted in death. Often the principals were standing on the sidelines, negotiating a settlement even as the blows were exchanged.

An old Carolingian law said that losing champions in France were to have a hand cut off, but I don't know that it was much enforced in the high Middle Ages. More often, the loser lost his legal reputation. This was quite a serious disability in medieval European culture. It would be like your signature having no value today. People depended on oral agreements to buy things on credit, make marriage contracts, apprentice their children and so forth. They also called upon their neighbours to witness important business transactions, swear oaths along with them in court, and act as sureties for their court appearances. Someone who could not do this would lose a lot of social capital in his community.

I doubt that the Chalons fencer could make a full-time living as a champion in 1300, but it's interesting that it was apparently the skill he wanted to be known for.
Ariella
User avatar
Ariella Elema
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 31 May 2006 18:23
Location: Toronto


Return to Arms & Armour, History, Militaria, Archaeology, Art

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests