Konstafler

[bigdummy]

I want to know more about the Konstafler, mounted Burghers fighting as heavy cavalry, as distinct from Knights or Men at Arms. Ran across the term in an Osprey book, it's discussed a bit by Hans Delbruck, but I can find very little about this term in English, it seems to come up on German web pages somewhat more often.

Can anyone hold forth on this subject a bit? and / or provide some useful links?

BD

[admin]

Is this word perhaps 'Constable' in French and English?..

[bigdummy]

Yes it is the same root, comes stabuli, count of the stable. But I think it had a different meaning in Central Europe. I'm not sure if they had merchant - knights in England or not...? I haven't seen any records from musters. Towns like Cologne and Strassbourg have muster records where they show for example in one 14th Century roll in Strassbourg, 81 lances from the merchants, 21 from the guilds, 5 from the boatmen, 4 from the weavers, 4 from the wine makers etc.

Have you ever seen anything similar from say, London or York?

BD

[admin]

To be honest I haven't really taken much notice of that sort of thing. As I understand it 'lances' or archers were provided by places and lords, rather than by things like guilds.

[Wolfgang Ritter]

To be honest I haven't really taken much notice of that sort of thing. As I understand it 'lances' or archers were provided by places and lords, rather than by things like guilds.

That's what's referred to the "livery and maintenance" right?
The HRE was rather different then, as there were of course troups provides by the feuding nobles themselves. But there seems to be a rather high number if not majority of soldiers being provided by the free towns of the empire.

Good example is the siege of Neuss by duke Charles from Burgundy 1474/1475.
The imperial army arriving to raise the siege consisted in large parts of troops from several german cities (Nuremberg, Mainz, Regensburg, COlogne, Augsburg to name but a few in no particular order).
Whereas Charles relied heavily on foreign mercenary soldiers (lots of italian and english origin), there seemed to be have been only a few mercenary soldiers in the opposite.
AFIAK that was often used in period propaganda during the birgundian wars (by the HRE as well as later the swiss confederacy) to distinct the "just and honest" act of self-defence against the ursurping, cruel and wild (etc....) duke.

[bigdummy]

And of course, the various city-leagues ended up having enormous power and influence within the HRE and beyond, most famously the Hanseatic League (which even once fought a successful war against England), the Swiss Confederation (which defeated the Hapsburgs and later the Burgundians during the same war mentioned above), the Prussian Confederation which defeated the Teutonic Order and brought 19 German cities into the Polish orbit (but retaining their autonomy and German culture).

And the key cities in Italy of course, Bologna, Milan, Florence, Genoa, Venice, Brescia were all also independent and powerful military forces in their own right.

All of this has a lot of context-relevance to HEMA (I think) since most of the principle cities where the Masters lived were either Free Imperial cities (Frankfurt am Main, Strassbourg, Basel, Augsburg, Cologne) or were the de-facto equivalent status under German town-law (Lubeck law) like Danzig and Prague, or independent city-states in Switzerland, Flanders or Italy.

BD

[Fab]

ursurping, cruel and wild (etc....) duke.

Yeah, yeah, whatever....

[bigdummy]

hahahahah

[Wolfgang Ritter]

ursurping, cruel and wild (etc....) duke.

Yeah, yeah, whatever....

Be assured, I rather serve the Duke than some Louis whatever number!!!

[Fab]

Be assured, I rather serve the Duke than some Louis whatever number!!!

Good man.

[bigdummy]

Wouldn't a good citizen of Burgundy have loyalty to the marvelous Burgundian towns like Dijon or Bruges rather than to any spoiled Prince?

Which Lord it was who sought to wreck these cities rather than let them see independence is irrelevant, a "Louis" and Charles the Bold burned Liège together in 1468, Charles would love to have done the same to many other towns rather than allow them indepedence if the Swiss hadn't killed him. Luckily for us these cities like Mainz, Strassbourg are still around.

BD

[Fab]

Luckily for us these cities like Mainz, Strassbourg are still around.

BD

You've never been there have you ?

[bigdummy]

I've been to both

My mother looks down on Strassbourg for some reason, I thought it was a really cool city, loved the clock in particular. But I was just a tourist.

BD

[bigdummy]

By the way Fab what do you think of Henri Pirenne?

[Fab]

By the way Fab what do you think of Henri Pirenne?

A bit outdated. I don't deny the northwards shift of European economical center, but there are more plausible reasons than Islam.

Wouldn't a good citizen of Burgundy have loyalty to the marvelous Burgundian towns like Dijon or Bruges rather than to any spoiled Prince?

Which Lord it was who sought to wreck these cities rather than let them see independence is irrelevant, a "Louis" and Charles the Bold burned Liège together in 1468, Charles would love to have done the same to many other towns rather than allow them indepedence if the Swiss hadn't killed him

Well, their independence were irrelevant. Liège started the uprising because they thought they could gain something from the change of head of state - and also, mostly, because Louis XI of France made them think so. After all, he lived his entire life (until January 1477, that is) in fear of his most powerful, Burgundian cousin. He utterly forgot that Duke Philip welcomed him and fed him for most of his life before he became King.

Charles died not because of the Swiss, but because of the cowardly Italians and treacherous French King.

Little known is the fact that after Charles' death, Dijon, Beaune and Chalon tried to rise against the French rule. But the bourgeois foiled the uprising, always eager to take the short term money rather than think of the people's wishes. It hasn't changed much, it seems.
Mâcon, also, my birthplace, who was attached to the Duchy in 1435 after the Treatise of Arras, didn't surrender to the French without a fight. And quite a lot of other cities. In fact, numerous small-scale battles took place in Burgundy in the late 1470s, something French history seldom mentions.


The Burgundian heritage must be sought elsewhere : in Austria, in Spain, in the heirs of Charles and Philip. Charles V saw himself first and foremost as the legitimate Duke of Burgundy before even other petty titles such as King of Spain or Archduke of Austria - or even, at times, Holy Roman Emperor. One of the conditions for the release of King Francis I of France after Pavia, was that Francis had to forsake all claims over the Duchy of Burgundy. Something he swore he'd do, on his children's lives, but didn't.


Ah well. Maybe you're nort ready for your Burgundian passport, after all...

[bigdummy]

No, probably not.

I identify more with the cities and the people in the middle, not so much with the serfs on the one hand and the Kings and Emperors on the other, I don't hate the Bourgeoise although all my French relatives feel as you do... (to the bars of the Marseillaise). Not that I'm an admirer of the Burgher patricians particularly either.

But to be honest I'm a man living in the 21st Century not the 15th, I suspect those times would be far more alien for us than either you or I could guess.

And it was Charles himself who killed Charles, not traitors or cowards. If he wanted an army with discipline and solidarity he should have raised one up by honest means instead of buying one.

He should, more to the point, not have tried to crush the Swiss or the towns they were allied with in Lorraine. The first time he played with them and lost his golden bath-tub after executing a bunch of prisoners to whom he had promised amnesty. He was lucky to escape with his life and he should have taken that warning... the fact that he didn't is why he earned his cognomen. Playing that kind of "winner take all" game has it's harsh consequences, especially when you are a rich man trying to take away the liberty of people with nothing to lose. Here in Southern American hick mongrel yank gringo running-dog Imperialist Lackey "no longer European" inner city bourgeois honkey land we have a saying: if you want to play with the big dogs you got to piss in the tall grass.

BD

P.S. The greatest victory in Burgundy against the French was by Ghent and Bruges.

[bigdummy]

By the way Fab what do you think of Henri Pirenne?

A bit outdated. I don't deny the northwards shift of European economical center, but there are more plausible reasons than Islam.

I agree, but I was referring to his analysis of the Burgundian cities. Which is also a bit dated though interesting.

BD