The Journeyman Years

[bigdummy]

Ever wonder what that tedious Aussie song 'Waltzing Matilda' was about?

It was about the years that a craftsman spent on the road traveling from town to town, learning the nuances of their trade, before they could become a Master. Usually this lasted for a year and a day. The medieval tradition never entirely died out in Germany (though the Nazis banned it for a while) and it is still practiced by carpenters, and is making a revival today and spreading somewhat to other trades.

These guys are dressed in the traditional clothing you have to wear, and once you start the journey you are not allowed to go within 50 miles of your home town until you have completed your voyage.


Check out the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years

Now I wonder, did men like Lichtenauer, Fiore, Ringeck, Joachim Meyer, go on journeys for a year and a day, traveling from town to town, learning the nuances of their craft ?

Here is perhaps the most titilating bit. While on their journeyman years, a young compagnon carried a traveling book called a Wanderbuch which would be stamped in each town he visited, and would be a kind of journal of their travels. Supposedly this practice went back to the Medieval period.

I think it would be pretty cool to find one of those for a journeyman fencer seeking to become a Master.

Maybe some of our German friends could enlighten us a bit more about this practice?

[admin]

I must admit that I didn't really know any details about this tradition, but it makes a lot of sense that this is what the fencing masters are talking about when they say they travelled around to various courts etc. This is a good example of us reading historical texts but not necessarily understanding the historical context of the content (speaking for myself here).

[bigdummy]

Yeah, I was stunned to find out about this. I was telling my wife about Guilds which I was researching for a DnD book, and we were talking about vocational education, and I mentioned how much better I thought it was in Germany compared to here from my observations when I was stationed there in the Army. She was asking me if the Guilds had survived in Germany, I looked into it and blundered across that.

I think that wiki article was recently translated from the German. As cheesy as this sounds Automatic translation software combined with wikipedia is a really powerful force.

BD

[bigdummy]

Also... I made a typo I think it's usually three years and a day not a year and a day

BD

[Wolfgang Ritter]

I have no better knowledge about that than you, but just to clarify: The "Walz" = the habit of wandering along the country, having various jobs with by different masters and havung the "Wanderbuch" stamped for proof etc, dates back to the 18th century.
It is related closely to the system of guilds ruling and regulatong education and settlement of new master etc.; but the "Waltz" itself may not be entirely medieval, the english wiki-article might be romanticising there.
I'm not saying, that it is something originating in modern society/very early industrial age. But I always get a bad feeling in my stomach, when something is referred as "....dating back to the middle ages...."
We are a lot closer to middle ages as we might think in a lot of matters, but I have had a fair share of pure assumptions of a connection with medieval times. Very often it's more "ye olde" muddyevil rather than medieval.....

As I understood it so far, there is only scarce reliable data pre-1800s.
Travelling to learn and earning a wage has been quite common and is in fact a necessity, as guilds sometimes had strict regulations for settlung down/opening a business; but I'm afraid, that there is not a lot of written data left. The most validd data usually comes from household records; there you have names, perhaps origin and expences (for example how many pairs of shoes over a year; the wage etc.) for the staff mentioned.
So the find of a household record from Master X referring to a young apprentice named Johannes Lichtenauer would definitely be a killer-info!!

[bigdummy]

What does the German wiki say about how far back it goes? Can you check to see if you can find any other articles on this on German sources? There is virtually nothing in English.

There are no sources on the English wiki but they go into a bit of detail about the practice in the Middle Ages (saying the number of years varied by craft and etc.) I'm going too see if I can contact the author of the article and try to find out more.

BD

[bigdummy]

Slightly different information on this article (also not sourced)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman

Interestingly, the wiki on Albrecht Durer says he walked the Wanderjahre as a journeyman, so maybe it did go back a bit further than the 18th Century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_D ... 80.9394.29

Wanderjahre and marriage (1490–94)After completing his term of apprenticeship, Dürer followed the common German custom of taking Wanderjahre—in effect gap year—in which the apprentice learned skills from artists in other areas; Dürer was to spend about four years away. He left in 1490, possibly to work under Martin Schongauer, the leading engraver of Northern Europe, but who died shortly before Dürer's arrival at Colmar in 1492. It is unclear where Dürer travelled in the intervening period, though it is likely that he went to Frankfurt and the Netherlands. In Colmar, Dürer was welcomed by Schongauer's brothers, the goldsmiths Caspar and Paul and the painter Ludwig. In 1493 Dürer went to Strasbourg, where he would have experienced the sculpture of Nikolaus Gerhaert. Dürer's first painted self-portrait (now in the Louvre) was painted at this time, probably to be sent back to his fiancé in Nuremberg.[3]

In early 1492 Dürer travelled to Basel to stay with another brother of Martin Schongauer, the goldsmith Georg.[4] Very soon after his return to Nuremberg, on 7 July 1494, at the age of 23, Dürer was married to Agnes Frey following an arrangement made during his absence. Agnes was the daughter of a prominent brass worker (and amateur harpist) in the city. However, no children resulted from the marriage.

The source listed for this is Giulia Bartrum, "Albrecht Dürer and his Legacy", British Museum Press, 2002

BD

[bigdummy]

Kevin Maurer of Meyer Federfecher (he is one of their main researchers) made these comments on the subject on HEMA Alliance forum:

from all that i have read, the Tradesworkers guilds,in Med/Ren Germany had this obligation. if the worker desired to become a master within the Guild, then they had to travel, and learn. I have not discovered if the period was for three years and a day.

The same can be said for the Militia of each Trade guild. They were tradesmen who also trained in the Kunst des Fechtens. Their obligations were either to stay in the city and defend it, or travel with a larger group, and raise hell where they could. But the dual responsibilities of these Guilds is important. I not sure if every trade did this, but we know that the Messersmiths, Shoemakers, Furriers, and of course all the Armor makers, participated in these "wanderings". And who could have been better equipped than the actual manufacturers of the devices of War. And the clothing and equipment for travel.

Funny that the word Freifechter or Freefencer, appears to me, to have come about through this very practice. It was a big part of the Trades Guilds, and the Freifechter are synonymous with these "Waltzers". Interesting that they mainly traveled to the Free Cities!

The Histories of various Freifechter masters, who left behind fencing manuals, show us that they did indeed travel. All over Europe. Gaining experience in the Art of Combat, through actual participation in Combat. I think this helps to explain the popularity back then, of the Freyfechter's fencing Manuals, and the fechtschulen.

Great find Jean! this Wandering, definitely seems to be a tradition that enabled them to gain experience and knowledge from all over. Makes perfect sense.

Kevin Maurer
MFFG

BD

[Motley]

I am not sure what to make of this.

Depending on who what where and when I guess the answer is different and get's back to the whole how did knights train question.

In the medieval period was 'Fencing Master to the stars' (a la Fiore) a Trade? or was it a responsibility given to a knight within an affinity?

From my limited understanding the whole Apprentice/Journeyman/Master progression was a very trade/lower class/Third estate orientated institution. Which may be compleatly relevent in the later bourgeois guild systems or even in the HRH? but is it when thinking about Knightly 'Masters'? And where does this leave our fishmonger fencing master?

[bigdummy]

I think there is definitely a big difference between how all of this worked in the Holy Roman Empire, Poland, Lombardy and Flanders vs. how it worked in strong Monarchies like England and France.

There was clearly different cultural context. But I don't think there was quite as sharp a dividing line, there was also bleed through especially in the border areas and trading towns.

In the medieval period was 'Fencing Master to the stars' (a la Fiore) a Trade? or was it a responsibility given to a knight within an affinity?

Maybe both in some cases, though Fiore described himself as a knight and training knights. But we know there is a relation between the Guild system in the Marxbruder and the Federfechter with the fencing Masters / fechtbucher, and we know many of the "German" Masters were tradesmen or burghers of one sort or another. And I believe Fiore himself did talk about traveling in foreign lands.

Ultimately I'm not sure how much the medieval Fechtbucher have to do with Knights, I think the latter had private tutors and the tournament system for training. I've always seen the Fechtbucher within Central / Eastern / Northern Europe at any rate as being more an urban middle class phenomenon.

BD

EDIT: I think your sigline says it all Dan

[Motley]

Ultimately I'm not sure how much the medieval Fechtbucher have to do with Knights, I think the latter had private tutors and the tournament system for training. I've always seen the Fechtbucher within Central / Eastern / Northern Europe at any rate as being more an urban middle class phenomenon.

In my not very informed mind I get the impression that post 1500 you are right. However the stuff before that date, Kal, Vadi, Fiore, Talhoffer, Ringeck, Von Danzig, Doebringer (I forget the number) seems to me to to state in a very strong way that it is focussed on written for (and most possible by a gentlemanly) (Lord/Knight/Squire) audience.

After the random date of 1500 the line between poor gentleman and rich burhger blurs and changes. Obviously this change had been going on since the 14thC, but seems to start to have significent enough momentum to be different from the 16thC onwards*.

Bare in mind that I look at this more from a Anglo-French centric view point, whcih I think includes Italy during this period too**.

EDIT: I think your sigline says it all Dan

yeah there is a reaosn why I use it.

EDIT: oh when i say Knightly I don't necessarily just mean Knights I an using it as short hand for the 2nd estate, gentle society.


* to my laymans mind
** although to be fair it was everybodies playground

[bigdummy]

I am coming from more of a Central / Eastern European-Centric perspective, but I actually think you may have it somewhat in reverse.

The Renaissance in Florence in 1380, it spread to several other Italian cities by 1400, it's going strong in many German and Flemish cities by the 1420s, and has metastizised throughout most of the cities of the HRE in the 1450s. It doesn't get to England or France until after 1500. By 1600 it is starting to die out in Italy and Germany but many of the remaining Italian and Flemish masters have been imported to the Royal courts of England and France and the Renaissance is really thriving in England with Shakespeare etc. By 1648 the power of the Monarchies of Europe is vastly increased at the expense of the towns, and the Renaissance is basically long gone. The intellectuals working as employees for the Monarchs then created 'The Enlightenment'.

The 15th Century Masters found their aristocratic patrons, but I see them, and specifically the Lichtenauer society, as very much part of this Burgher culture within the HRE (and in Prussia and Poland), they are closely associated with Imperial Free Cities or the equivalent, and indicate ties to the Marxbruder, Talhoffer for example has the Lion of St. Mark in his coat of arms.

But as you said, it's all quite complex, this may all be a matter of perspective, glass half full vs. glass half empty. We are probably both wrong. More will become clear as we continue to learn about this.

BD

[bigdummy]

In other words I see the 'second estate' as consumers of but not really direct participants in the culture represented in most of the Fechtbuchs from the 15th and early 16th Century, just as they were with so many of the other products of the Renaissance from art to architecture to alchemy to clockwork machines to the printing press and so on.

I think that changed somewhat in the 16th-17th Century as the middle class diminished in much of Europe, though in the old Free Cities it was well entrenched (and safe behind thick city walls) and continued a while longer, until the French Revolution and in some cases all the way into modern times.

BD

[Motley]

tbh I a alreday out of my depth here. I deliberatly tried to avoid mentioning 'The Renaissance'

[bigdummy]

By way of explanation, my emphasis on the Renaissance is because I think the KDF and the Fechtbucher are part of that particular cultural phenomenon, though I don't have any proof of that, the system may have existed more or less the same well before that time, and simply became more visible because more books were being written at that time in general.

Anyway, back to the Wanderjahre ... where can I find one signed by Liechtenauer?

BD

[Fab]

By way of explanation, my emphasis on the Renaissance is because I think the KDF and the Fechtbucher are part of that particular cultural phenomenon

They're totally not. They're utterly, definitely medieval. They took on Renaissance forms later, but the way the teaching is organized (both in terms of transmission of knowledge and structure of the books themselves) is purely late medieval.

Same goes for Fiore. And even Vadi.


Meyer is Renaissance though. And so is Mair, though the core/contents of his books aren't.



Back on topic : this tradition also still exists in France. It's called "compagnonnage". I knew a few "compagnons du tour de France".
They even developped a whole stick/staff fighting system - more on the subject in the upcoming Dijon book thansk to Olivier Dupuis.

[bigdummy]

So do you see the KDF fechtbucher as burgher middle class phenomenon or an outgrowth of the '2nd Estate' ?

BD

[bigdummy]

Back on topic : this tradition also still exists in France. It's called "compagnonnage". I knew a few "compagnons du tour de France".
They even developped a whole stick/staff fighting system - more on the subject in the upcoming Dijon book thansk to Olivier Dupuis.

Is it still associated with guilds in France?

BD

[bigdummy]

http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... eyman.html
http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... eyman.html

BD

[Fab]

Is it still associated with guilds in France?

BD

Guilds were abolished during the Revolution.