Discussion on 'Renaissance English assaults with daggers'

[bigdummy]

Some are funny, its amusing how the guy who won the fight sometimes couldn't help that the other guy "ran into their point"

BD

[craftyfighter]

Some are funny, its amusing how the guy who won the fight sometimes couldn't help that the other guy "ran into their point"

BD

I wonder if this is the medieval equivalent of "I didn't want to shoot him, but he charged right at me"



extra points if you get the reference

[Ty N.]

These old blotters are great because, despite the span of centuries, you can see rather clearly that human nature hasn't changed one iota. The events boil down to the usual banal motivations for most violent crimes (i.e. greed, pride, petty arguments over politics and religion, personal insults taken too far, etc.).

"You are a boye and you have geven evell wordes by me, and I will make thee a boye."

[bigdummy]

These old blotters are great because, despite the span of centuries, you can see rather clearly that human nature hasn't changed one iota. The events boil down to the usual banal motivations for most violent crimes (i.e. greed, pride, petty arguments over politics and religion, personal insults taken too far, etc.).

Sounds like the Baboon Waster Pub... to bad we aren't all sitting around the same room with rapiers.

Actually in all seriousness, I think the banal insults are usually just a layer over the real motivations for murder, all kinds of politics, financial dealings, religious disputes etc. which are far more serious.

BD

[Ty N.]

Thomas Predeox of Ashperton, gentleman, examined before the Mayor (Michael Germyn) and Nicholas Martyn, justices, deposed that about seven of the clock at night on Aug. 27, 1583, he was at the Southgate of the city when Lewes Glavell followed him and charged him to have said certain days past that he (Glavell) did smell of ale. P. said that he knew him not, and G. said that P. was a very knave and did strike him with his fist two or three blows and then drew his dagger and again assaulted him.

The circumstances do seem petty though.

[bigdummy]

I guess my question would be, did one of these guys belong to say, a Protestant political faction and the other to a Catholic faction? Did one belong to a family which owed the other a great deal of money? Was one of them cuckolded by the other? Was one being blocked from reaching a certain political appointment by the other? To me these accounts describe legal rulings which are generally made to sound as neat and simple as possible, in order for the case to be closed, because the consequences of any further complications can be quite severe in the legal system. People will give a petty reason to cover any deeper issues that they would prefer the authorities not to look into (or that the authorities themselves would prefer not to look into). But I doubt that most of these incidents were caused by off-hand insults as much as I doubt that anybody "ran into" anybody elses sword-point in 9 out of 10 cases.

Needless to say, as usual, we see everything completely differently, and that is as it should be, Ty.

BD

[Ty N.]

Well, all we have is the blotter. There's no one alive who can answer the questions you ask. Questions are good for speculation, but you can't see what isn't there.

[bigdummy]

Actually in many of these cases, with a little research, I think you can find more. Some of these people were socially prominent and probably left some other traces in the records. But that is more for a PhD candidate than a high school dropout like me...

BD

[craftyfighter]

Thomas Predeox of Ashperton, gentleman, examined before the Mayor (Michael Germyn) and Nicholas Martyn, justices, deposed that about seven of the clock at night on Aug. 27, 1583, he was at the Southgate of the city when Lewes Glavell followed him and charged him to have said certain days past that he (Glavell) did smell of ale. P. said that he knew him not, and G. said that P. was a very knave and did strike him with his fist two or three blows and then drew his dagger and again assaulted him.

The circumstances do seem petty though.

I love this one as it happened in Exeter and I know the southgate well. That Thomas Predeox was from "Ashperton" (Ashburton) is all the more fascinating for me.

[Sean M]

Actually in many of these cases, with a little research, I think you can find more. Some of these people were socially prominent and probably left some other traces in the records. But that is more for a PhD candidate than a high school dropout like me...

BD

You might enjoy Charles Nicholl, "The Reckoning: The Murder of Christopher Marlowe" (Jonathan Cape, 1992) although it gets wooly at times. He researched the famous incident where Christopher Marlowe was stabbed to death in a rented room after a quarrel over the bill (or at least, that's the version which the jury accepted). It turns out that everyone in that room had crossed paths before in the Elizabethan underworld, and he has a complicated theory about what was really going on.

[bigdummy]

That does sound interesting.

BD

[Ariella Elema]

There's a classic article about attitudes towards homicide in late medieval England. In theory, the rules regarding self-defence were quite strict, but in practice juries seem to have been reluctant to see their neighbour dragged out and hanged in front of his weeping children.

When you compare fourteenth-century coroners' rolls with the evidence presented in subsequent trial records, you sometimes see consensual fights turn into ambushes against the defendant, fights in the open become situations where the defendant was backed up against a wall, and in one case a victim who was stabbed in the back became an attacker who was stabbed in the stomach.

[bigdummy]

Hence all the tales of falling on swords in the inquests.

BD

[Motley]

There's a classic article about attitudes towards homicide in late medieval England. In theory, the rules regarding self-defence were quite strict, but in practice juries seem to have been reluctant to see their neighbour dragged out and hanged in front of his weeping children.

When you compare fourteenth-century coroners' rolls with the evidence presented in subsequent trial records, you sometimes see consensual fights turn into ambushes against the defendant, fights in the open become situations where the defendant was backed up against a wall, and in one case a victim who was stabbed in the back became an attacker who was stabbed in the stomach.

Thanks for linking that Ariella, it looks interesting.

EDIT: Damnit! it's JSTOR access! grrr!

[Ariella Elema]

Dan, I've sent you a copy. Anyone else who wants to see it, PM me.