Disarms in sparring

[HuubB]

I have yet to have any trainee's proficient in a system.
Would a cell phone video be good enough, I do not have access to a proper video camera?

I am meeting someone from historical fencing group Dreynschlag, in January however there is no official date, and I am unsure if we would be doing such a thing.

It however might be useful to see if people teach a similar move in a system. Is there any particular system that you have in mind?

My speciality area is human bio mechanics, perhaps various grips and how they can effect the human body?

As long as it is watchable I would not mind cell phone or other recordings. I train and teach German Longsword and Wrestling (Medieval), would you have some examples of that, it would be appreciated at least by me.
Dreynschlag is one of the better known schools in Europe with a good reputation as far as I know. So if you meet someone of that school it could be an interesting meeting.

If bodymechanics is your thing, by all means use it in your interpretations of the manuscripts and the drawings (plates), any expertise in that field will help all of us greatly. If I may be so free, Thomas Stoeppler from Ochs is also an expert on body mechanics and the things he tells are very interesting, especially if he explains some of his interpretations in body movement, posture and dynamics of striking techniques.

And of course one should not forget standard basics as: balance, timing, footwork, eye contact and intention.

Bert Bruijnen

[Dean]

I am meeting with Oli, my understanding is he is a founder and instructor. German medieval longsword and wrestling it is then.

I may also demonstrate plays at the engagement. (8 inches down from the tip of the sword and crossed perpendicular) These may illustrate the difference two inches make. I am sure I could demonstrate even 1 inch, however I suspect it would not translate very well to video. This may help to illustrate why free play is a poor feed back medium.

[Anders Linnard]

I run a class especially for helping people become better instructors through the use of known training methods. I am unaware of any other historic fencing group offering such a class as part of their curriculum. The long term goal is to have a number of instructors offering various courses in martial arts which they have a predilection for.

We are having a class just like that in January and on our website there is a guide for instructors. A text I am almost done translating into English.

/Anders

[Corpsie]

You wish me to post a video using a system of evaluation that I believe holds little value. (Free play)
What logic is this?

Well, it's useful to see if everyone is singing from the same hymnsheet.

Free play is mainly for the person to evaluate themselves, however without a strong core of a system to do so, it may lead to a flawed conclusion.

It may. But then again, it may not.

From George Silvers “Paradoxes of Defence”
.......

The concept of this example is to illustrate, without sound grounding in the core system, the individual makes the mistake of believing they can safely defend themselves using a dagger versus a sword. Such is the erroneous judgements that can be made by the individual when free play is the measure

That is a failing of the person and of the teacher. I should bring a video camera to practice more. Not to stick onto youtube and show what is, at best, mediocre but improving technique- but because being able to step outside the mask and watch yourself is a useful tool.

[Dean]

We are having a class just like that in January and on our website there is a guide for instructors. A text I am almost done translating into English

I would be very interested in the teaching method. I have never heard of a professional training system that uses creative play as training method or a form of assessment. If you could source the training company’s program, I would be delighted in some form of correspondence with them.

That is a failing of the person and of the teacher.

Well Doh,
So how is that going to cured with continued free play?
As Silver put it, "are all the days of their lives learning, and are never taught "

Both Silvers and my point are one and the same. Without a core of knowledge of fencing, the person will never be taught.

It is similar with all training and learning institutions. You teach the core and then allow people to be creative. What varies is the amount of time allocated to the teaching of the core. If you use universities as an example, this is often years worth of training. Accounting and physics might be good examples. You may note none of them use creative free play to teach, or evaluate a person’s performance. Creative accounting comes somewhat later.
If I may hark back to Fiore, who claimed, fencing was a higher art than a doctor or lawyer, that is, the core took longer to learn.

In the business world, training courses like the one I use are universally acknowledged as being the ideal. In all cases creative free play comes at the desecration of the employer. I can imagine such a training device for a crane operator and high-rise construction engineers. What a "fun" world that would be to live in.


To me, free play before a proper structured training core is learnt, is just lazy training with little or no specific goal. It has NO place as a test of someones ability to have learnt the required material.

[bigdummy]

if you are training to fight, and you can't fight (either for real or in simulated fashion) then you aren't actually training anything. You are doing ballet of some kind. The proof of the value of sparring is that in Europe in the era most of us study quite rough sparring and contests of various types were routinely practiced by everyone from knights to fencing fraternities (marxbruder, federfechter et al).

You can quote Silver as you please, or entire chapters of Meyer or Dobringer, I don't mind reading these familiar passages again and again, but it does little to bolster your arguments. Rather than coming across like some pal of Silver or something, your know-it-all posture remains supported only by the thin veil of your own rhetoric.

I can think of a few people in the HEMA world you might get along with just fine, (they might even give you a fancy title and a crown), but I think you will find most of us these days give short shrift to the kind of empty elitist posturing you are indulging in, it's nothing new.

I think you will find that most of us are willing and interested to discuss things such as pedagogy, training practices and praxis etc., not to mention interpretations of the Masters both on technical and more philosophical issues, but a touch of humility, open mindedness, and pragmatism will help you actually communicate far better than lofty claims of authority, if that is your actual interest.

BD

[bigdummy]

I understand BD's and Anders' requests.

@BD
I saw a few of your videos (mainly sparring), do you have videos where you explain concepts or techniques??

I'm not certain of the bearing on this conversation, but I'll bite.

In my group in New Orleans we are familiar with these particular vids (some of which have been around several years), I love to see these as well. We actually have done a few training videos, most recently on fiore dagger disarms we were adapting from Jay Vails interpretations, and also a couple of messer plays, but they are fairly casually done and were not intended (or edited) for public display, rather for our own learning and training.

Hopefully later this year we will have time to put together something as valuable to the community, though I frankly couldn't do a longsword vid as useful as these without enhancing / polishing my repertoire (I think making a vid like this would be a good training exorcise in itself actually, which is one of the reasons why I think they are made)

example of what I love to see (is neutrally meant example):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtisxi1d ... re=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUO ... re=related

and:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI ... re=related

here they show some really cool moves based on concepts and manuscripts.

enjoy the vids!

Bert Bruijnen

Also, I would like to add, that I'm not trying to imply in my criticism of Dean that I know more than anyone else about HEMA, I just know bullshit when I see it, and am not enough of a neophyte to assume everything I have learned is trumped by dubious claims of expertise / authority.

BD

[Corpsie]

That is a failing of the person and of the teacher.

Well Doh,
So how is that going to cured with continued free play?

Well, since you ask- Getting a half decent teacher would be a start. A student needs to be able to fail before they can succeed. You cannot do that in drills.


However, a good bruise in a safe environment will tell you that you messed up. The assistance of video will give you the distance to see what you did wrong

You've admitted your focus is body mechanics. Maybe you should also admit this is the cause of your bias.

As Silver put it, "are all the days of their lives learning, and are never taught "

Both Silvers and my point are one and the same. Without a core of knowledge of fencing, the person will never be taught.

Silver also said "look at those bloody wops, taking over my country, and teaching my fellow Englishmen how to murder each other".

Knowledge without understanding has no meaning.

I have improved because of freeplay and light sparring. This has given me the incentive and the private feeling of improvement that encourages me to go back and improve the bits that I was rubbish at- it helps me understand the dynamics of a fight. To dismiss freeplay as a poor training tool is... well, who was it that said a poor workman blames his tools?

It is similar with all training and learning institutions. You teach the core and then allow people to be creative. What varies is the amount of time allocated to the teaching of the core. If you use universities as an example, this is often years worth of training. Accounting and physics might be good examples. You may note none of them use creative free play to teach, or evaluate a person’s performance.

Actually they do. My degree was full of creative freeplay. I was encouraged to take principles and apply them to bashing the hell out of a target that could fight back.

However, if you still want to use universities as an example, then you would never find someone who is new to the theories. What's wrong with looking at developmental theory and general concepts of learning and recognise the importance and value of play?

In the business world, training courses like the one I use are universally acknowledged as being the ideal. In all cases creative free play comes at the desecration of the employer. I can imagine such a training device for a crane operator and high-rise construction engineers. What a "fun" world that would be to live in.

HEMA is not, for most of us, a career. Now what you have done could, generously be called 'sound logic from a faulty premise'. Ungenerously it could be called something else.

I'm a software tester. Could you explain how my creative freeplay harms my employer? (note, I am not trained as a tester..)

To me, free play before a proper structured training core is learnt, is just lazy training with little or no specific goal. It has NO place as a test of someones ability to have learnt the required material.

Which would take you back to the what is the proper structured training core- what makes you so qualified to state that you are so right that you can easily dismiss a powerful tool?

A good teacher should be able to incorporate freeplay without feeling the need to spend 6 months teaching a student how to walk, 3 months on how to grip a sword and a month on which end goes into the bad guy.

[Dean]

Well, since you ask- Getting a half decent teacher would be a start. A student needs to be able to fail before they can succeed. You cannot do that in drills.

So you believe you cannot fail in drills?
Perhaps the drills need to be more dynamic?

I have improved because of freeplay and light sparring. This has given me the incentive and the private feeling of improvement that encourages me to go back and improve the bits that I was rubbish at- it helps me understand the dynamics of a fight. To dismiss freeplay as a poor training tool is... well, who was it that said a poor workman blames his tools?

If you go back to the example of dagger play versus sword, how will your free play teach you?

However, if you still want to use universities as an example, then you would never find someone who is new to the theories. What's wrong with looking at developmental theory and general concepts of learning and recognise the importance and value of play?

The timing is what is wrong. You were given the theories and sound principle to work to. This gave you a solid foundation on which to try your creative talents. The value of play comes from having a firm structure to begin with.

I'm a software tester. Could you explain how my creative freeplay harms my employer? (note, I am not trained as a tester..)

I would suggest you have had training as a tester however it may not have been formal. If your testing regime was not of a set standard, then your employer would reap pecuniary punishment.
Perhaps a more obvious case might suit.
Imagine you are surgeon, how does free play effect your employer, and possibly the patient? Again note the surgeon has passed a formal testing procedure.
Perhaps you are in medical school, how does free play effect your employer, and a live patient?

Which would take you back to the what is the proper structured training core- what makes you so qualified to state that you are so right that you can easily dismiss a powerful tool?

My formal training as a trainer, and evaluator.
I could also appeal to sound logic..

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/vi ... 6ebe0223c8

bottom of the page.

A good teacher should be able to incorporate freeplay without feeling the need to spend 6 months teaching a student how to walk, 3 months on how to grip a sword and a month on which end goes into the bad guy.

A good trainer follows a well proven path of success. While the science of brain memory and retrieval and how to train people is still improving, there is little or no evidence to suggest that training centres have poor performance. There is considerable evidence that the established present education system has been slow to adapt. Most reports have suggested for them work quite well for less than ¼ of the population, moderately less for some others, and poor for kinaesthetic learners. I suggest kinaesthetic learners would do well in most sword classes.

[Corpsie]

So you believe you cannot fail in drills?
Perhaps the drills need to be more dynamic?

Perhaps the drills teach you too much how and not enough why.

I have improved because of freeplay and light sparring.
If you go back to the example of dagger play versus sword, how will your free play teach you?

I have improved because of freeplay and light sparring. It has given me the incentive to improve and stick with what I find a bit dull. To work through the problems that prevented me from learning using the Oriental style.

What's wrong with looking at developmental theory and general concepts of learning and recognise the importance and value of play?

The timing is what is wrong. You were given the theories and sound principle to work to. This gave you a solid foundation on which to try your creative talents. The value of play comes from having a firm structure to begin with.[/quote]

No it doesn't. The value of play is a safe environment that can allow you experiment and improve. It helps develop new schemata and allows new information to be accommodated. You don't need to be skilled to benefit from play.

I would suggest you have had training as a tester however it may not have been formal.

I would state that I have not had any training.. my informal training was a development of freeplay. If you're going to tell me "no it wasn't"- you'd better have a damn good reason to call me a liar.

If your testing regime was not of a set standard, then your employer would reap pecuniary punishment.

Of a set standard..pecuniary.... you're talking managementese. Please, try to use plain English instead of hiding behind jargon. I don't use long words to try and bludgeon people into submission. Your condescending tone suggests to me you need to hide behind polysyllabic outbursts.

The set standard is produce a working system that works.

Perhaps a more obvious case might suit.
Imagine you are surgeon, how does free play effect your employer, and possibly the patient? Again note the surgeon has passed a formal testing procedure.
Perhaps you are in medical school, how does free play effect your employer, and a live patient?

That would be perhaps a more specific case. Not a more obvious. Now I would like to say you have said ALL. If it really is all, you could explain where freeplay has harmed the company I work for without the assertion that I am either a liar or ignorant.

My formal training as a trainer, and evaluator.

Is it Turtles all the way down?

My formal training is sounding the BS alarm.... still you have formal training as a trainer- maybe you should take some formal training as a communicator.

I could also appeal to sound logic..

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/vi ... 6ebe0223c8

Nope- no sound logic there. You seek knowledge and 'perceived accuracy of translation' others seek to understand the fight.

You APPEAR to dismiss it as a tool because you want to work along what seems to be a fairly oriental model of katas and paired drills. Which is understandable, given the kind of formal training you claim you have.

I am not saying this is wrong- but I am saying that it would not work for me.

You dismiss competitions and freeplay because you cannot see who is technically the best. Others argue that how can you learn sword fighting without fighting. One is more 'logically sound' than the other.

Oh, and the video camera is your friend.. You should formally know this with your formal training.

A good teacher should be able to incorporate freeplay without feeling the need to spend 6 months teaching a student how to walk, 3 months on how to grip a sword and a month on which end goes into the bad guy.

A good trainer follows a well proven path of success. While the science of brain memory and retrieval and how to train people is still improving, there is little or no evidence to suggest that training centres have poor performance. [/quote]

If you don't respect me enough to try plain English, don't expect me to fall for even more managementese. You're not talking to a bunch of plebs here.

Besides I did not say trainer... I said teacher. A good teacher, teaches.

You can take your well proven path of success and inflict your milgram of pavlovian training on someone else.

There is considerable evidence that the established present education system has been slow to adapt. Most reports have suggested for them work quite well for less than ¼ of the population, moderately less for some others, and poor for kinaesthetic learners. I suggest kinaesthetic learners would do well in most sword classes.

And what has this got to do with the value of freeplay- a tool that can easily work on both a motivational and analytical level?

[Dean]

It appears I have insulted one of the sacred cows..”free play”

If you don't respect me enough to try plain English, don't expect me to fall for even more managementese. You're not talking to a bunch of plebs here.

Besides I did not say trainer... I said teacher. A good teacher, teaches.

I purposely do not use the term teacher, or students. Perhaps it is a level of semantics however I believe there is an important distinction.
I consider myself to be a trainer, and people that train with me, trainee’s. Teacher –student implies a relationship based on one person being a leader of system or practise that they have mastered, or a formally recognised skill. I do not consider myself to a master, nor do I have a formal recognised skill. I do possess a skill through the use of bio-mechanics to interpret treatises and manuals, however I am deficient in the ability to translate, and I rely heavily on other people's work in this area.

Quote:
There is considerable evidence that the established present education system has been slow to adapt. Most reports have suggested for them work quite well for less than ¼ of the population, moderately less for some others, and poor for kinaesthetic learners. I suggest kinaesthetic learners would do well in most sword classes.


And what has this got to do with the value of freeplay- a tool that can easily work on both a motivational and analytical level?

It was a comment on a traditional learning system.
It appears from your last comment that you consider free play to be useful on an analytical level, and no amount of constructive evidence will persuade you otherwise. I note your negative comments, this is usually a sign of a highly defensive position. I suggest a cooling off period, so I will take the initiative and terminate correspondence with you on this subject.
Thank you for your replies.

[J Marwood]

It appears I have insulted one of the sacred cows..”free play”

No, there are no sacred cows here. However you've been more than a little insulting in your arguing and you've offered nothing more than assertions from your own preferences whilst implying that no-one else knows what they're talking about.

Don't be surprised if people react to that. You've suggested taking some time out. I think that's a great idea, and you might reflect on why it is that people have responded this way to you. Different, unconnected people.

Now it's Christmas day, so climb down off that sugar pedestal and go spend happy time with family and friends

[Dean]

No, there are no sacred cows here. However you've been more than a little insulting in your arguing and you've offered nothing more than assertions from your own preferences whilst implying that no-one else knows what they're talking about.

Don't be surprised if people react to that. You've suggested taking some time out. I think that's a great idea, and you might reflect on why it is that people have responded this way to you. Different, unconnected people.

Now it's Christmas day, so climb down off that sugar pedestal and go spend happy time with family and friends

I have printed this out and shown it to a group of friends. Much mirth was had by all.
My assertions that free play offers little training or evaluation benefit, are well backed by the vast majority of training institutions.

Perhaps it is you that should ask why people have reacted so strongly to this. To me it is clearly a sacred object of worship that cannot be questioned.

[Andreas Engström]

To think I believed I knew how to be pompous and condescending. I feel humbled.

-Andreas

[bigdummy]

I have printed this out and shown it to a group of friends. Much mirth was had by all.
My assertions that free play offers little training or evaluation benefit, are well backed by the vast majority of training institutions.

Perhaps it is you that should ask why people have reacted so strongly to this. To me it is clearly a sacred object of worship that cannot be questioned.

The thing is, this isn't a group. Check the Memberlist. This site includes 784 people from all around the world, South Africa, Europe, the UK, South America, USA, Australia, East Asia. Many are new to this site, most of us don't know each other. Among those of us who do, we all have our own differences, there are no sacred cows here. I think the one thing we agree on is that you are one of the single biggest phonies any of us have seen for a long time, and that's really saying something..

All emphasis on sparring aside, I'd personally like to see any evidence that you are anything other than totally full of shit. Do you have a single training video available? A public demonstration? Anything?

Where / how did you acquire your utter mastery of HEMA? Did you do your own translations or rely upon someone else's? Which masters have you studied exactly, and for how long?

BD

[Dean]

To think I believed I knew how to be pompous and condescending. I feel humbled.

You were my master, I learnt all my best tricks from you.
I never thought I could more pompous and condescending than you.
This is truly a great day.

[Andreas Engström]

To think I believed I knew how to be pompous and condescending. I feel humbled.

You were my master, I learnt all my best tricks from you.
I never thought I could more pompous and condescending than you.
This is truly a great day.

Oh, I'd say you probably have some sort of prodigy talent.

And it was not a joke, so your laughter seems a bit out of place. I'm starting to understand why Gordon dislikes smileys so.

Think of it as freeplay critique. In your postings, so far you tend to come across as quite condescending, know-it-all and holier-than-thou. Now, this may be exactly what you're aiming for, or not. I don't know. I'm just giving you feedback. Use it as you will.

-Andreas

[HuubB]

I understand BD's and Anders' requests.

@BD
I saw a few of your videos (mainly sparring), do you have videos where you explain concepts or techniques??

I'm not certain of the bearing on this conversation, but I'll bite.


Hopefully later this year we will have time to put together something as valuable to the community, though I frankly couldn't do a longsword vid as useful as these without enhancing / polishing my repertoire (I think making a vid like this would be a good training exorcise in itself actually, which is one of the reasons why I think they are made)

Also, I would like to add, that I'm not trying to imply in my criticism of Dean that I know more than anyone else about HEMA, I just know bullshit when I see it, and am not enough of a neophyte to assume everything I have learned is trumped by dubious claims of expertise / authority.

BD

BD,

my first comment:
...."
@BD
I saw a few of your videos (mainly sparring), do you have videos where you explain concepts or techniques??" ....

This is meant positive and constructive. I am always curious in how the techniques people do are translated into things like sparring or reactive and active drills. And that will give me an idea on how to set things up for myself.

So not meant to let you ' bite' .
I respect everybody here on this forum and that includes you too BD.

It does not matter to me how much people know or don't know. Good quality command over a few good techniques and concepts and the ability to apply these well is far more valuable than half control over many techniques.

Knowledge can be obtained, skill can be trained.

[Dean]

Oh, I'd say you probably have some sort of prodigy talent.

And it was not a joke, so your laughter seems a bit out of place. I'm starting to understand why Gordon dislikes smileys so.

Think of it as freeplay critique. In your postings, so far you tend to come across as quite condescending, know-it-all and holier-than-thou. Now, this may be exactly what you're aiming for, or not. I don't know. I'm just giving you feedback. Use it as you will.

-Andreas

I wasn't joking either

[bigdummy]

I have printed this out and shown it to a group of friends. Much mirth was had by all.

Was it nervous, uneasy laughter, accompanied by odd looks?

BD