all of these manuals were written by commoners
Claus Sørensen wrote:Hans Talhoffers "vom Stain" manual show (even if it is just two illustrations) a fightingstyle where the bucklers are not seperated from the sword. But I like the idea of two fighting styles.
Claus wrote:But remember that Kal/Talhoffer taught nobles. This is well documented in their manuals.
Claus Sørensen wrote:And if I understand you right Roland?, you are saying that I.33 is the better system?
Claus Sørensen wrote:While debating such things people often talk about evolution both within fightingsystems and perhaps also as you mention here within the social-classes. What ablut the personal preferences of the fencing-masters?
Claus Sørensen wrote:I do not believe in the social-connection because as I mentioned earlier Hans Talhoffer and Paulus Kal taught these things to people much higher on the social-ladder than themselves (e.g. The vom Stain brothers and Eberhard von Württemberg). These guys could afford the best and if there was a difference between the efficiency of the system they would have gone for the better one.
So are you suggesting that the reputation of established commoners was the same in 1450 as it was in 1300? I doubt it. Cities and townsmen were only beginning to acquire wealth and influence in Germany around 1300 while at 1450 they were at their peak. This would have had influenced nobility's attitude towards commoners, wouldn't it?
Claus Sørensen wrote: I am saying that if two buckler systems existed and one of them was/is better than the other, then people like the vom Stain brothers and especially Eberhard von Wurttemberg would have choosen the better one! They could certainly afford it.
Claus Sørensen wrote:I am saying that if two buckler systems existed and one of them was/is better than the other, then people like the vom Stain brothers and especially Eberhard von Wurttemberg would have choosen the better one! They could certainly afford it.
admin wrote:It may be useful to look at who the Bolognese masters were teaching, as sword and buckler was their most common and universally taught weapon combination. Manciolino and Marozzo seem to have run schools, which to be would suggest they weren't necessarily teaching nobles at all, but rather middle class men with enough spare money to spend on fencing lessons (ie. gentlemen).
There are many different sword and shield systems - it is my belief that if one were 'better' then all systems would have evolved to be like that one. But they haven't. Different systems work better for different people in different contexts.
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