Fightcamp Rapier & Smallsword tournament

[Abomination]

I'd enter, even though I'm clearly too macho to have a chance.

[Nikos]

Do we need a seperate thread for this...???

Questions:-

Grappling...?
Standing grapples are allowed... to what end..?
are hilt strikes/pommelling allowed...? scored?? if not, then why allow grapples?

cuts to the arm don't count (but an arm "parry" results in a warning)?
what about all the cuts to arms and legs shown in treatises???

also you haven't specified how many warnings can be given and what the result is..

Grappling within reason, judges will break it up if no point is scored quickly, pommel and hilt strikes to the head allowed, there are other reasons to grapple though, closing your opponents line of attack and ensuring there is no double hit for example.

yes, cuts to the arms and legs do not count, this is a tournament, not a training session, I know that most of the manuals cover those techniques, but this isn't about technique, its a tournament, what is needed here is simplicity and fun, and making it widely available to everyone.

[admin]

this isn't about technique, its a tournament, .

pardon ?

then why bother practicing/training in a system...?

[admin]

My attitude is the same as with longsword - keep it simple.
I would say, all cuts and thrusts allowed - Judge awards a hit if the attack was given in such a way that it would have seriously injured, had the weapons been sharp and the attack given with the same or a little more force.

[Caz]

this isn't about technique, its a tournament, .

pardon ?

then why bother practicing/training in a system...?

OK...

if you limit hits, limit targets, ignore double hits (or give it to the person who hit first)... then it's basically sport fencing isn't it???

but specifically not rapier... (however we define the rapier)

[Nikos]

this isn't about technique, its a tournament, .

pardon ?

then why bother practicing/training in a system...?

Because theres more to training than a tournament, its just for a bit of fun, and many cuts made to the arms and legs would be very hard to judge whether they were positive or not.

[Nikos]

Well in essence it is, its fencing, and a tournament is sport, not martial art, so yes it is a form of sport fencing, I don't see why this has caused such a stir though, look at many of the rules used in longsword tournaments, the rules make things simple and easy use and can be quite fun.

[Caz]

Well in essence it is, its fencing, and a tournament is sport, not martial art, so yes it is a form of sport fencing, I don't see why this has caused such a stir though, look at many of the rules used in longsword tournaments, the rules make things simple and easy use and can be quite fun.

OK, I should have said the modern olympic form of sport fencing as espoused by the FIE , but I thought you'd have got the gist.

my point was simply that historical rapier is made up of so much more than cut to the head and thrust to the chest and face and these rules over simplify it..

[Nikos]

Well in essence it is, its fencing, and a tournament is sport, not martial art, so yes it is a form of sport fencing, I don't see why this has caused such a stir though, look at many of the rules used in longsword tournaments, the rules make things simple and easy use and can be quite fun.

OK, I should have said the modern olympic form of sport fencing as espoused by the FIE , but I thought you'd have got the gist.

my point was simply that historical rapier is made up of so much more than cut to the head and thrust to the chest and face and these rules over simplify it..

Of course it is, which is why I related it to longsword tournaments, but a tournament is a show of skill under a system of rules, otherwise we may as well just have a sparring session where we declare a winner at the end.

[Caz]

how can a tournament be a show of skill .... but not about technique..

I'm sorry Nick, I'm not trying to be deliberatly difficult here, I'm trying to understand the point or benefit of basically "doing rapier badly" for fun.

[Nikos]

how can a tournament be a show of skill .... but not about technique..

I'm sorry Nick, I'm not trying to be deliberatly difficult here, I'm trying to understand the point or benefit of basically "doing rapier badly" for fun.

Well again, when I said technique, of course that doesn't mean you do it badly, there are just restrictions, I don't see how that means its rapier done badly, it uses all of the primary target zones, and this is very typical of many tournament rules, I don't know why thats such a shock.

When you allow all target areas in a rapier tournament you typically end up with a standoffish fight with lots of wrist and forearm tapping, which is no fun.

[Cutlery Penguin]

I'm trying to understand the point or benefit of basically "doing rapier badly" for fun.

Because then I can join in?

[Dark Squirrel]

But if the rules are too restrictive and ignore most of what is in the manuals, you will not get a show of skill.

It is perfectly possible to have _reasonably_ simple rules that still allow for the variety of techniques show in rapier manuals. I have at least two such systems, both of which I suggested for the BFHS.

If the tournament does not allow you to test the skills you have trained, what is the incentive to enter?

[Nikos]

I am not saying I won't allow all targets, these are my suggestiosn to discuss, I don't see it as that prohibitive, and as for whats the point in studying technique if you can't use it, well this is one tournament, it will allow you to us the vast majority of technique, and I still find it a little strange that this has caused such a stir, look at the Vienna event for longsword, only head cuts allowed, and whilst it clearly needed a few changes, no one expected the rules to allow everything in longsword.

[admin]

I don't understand what the fuss is. Why not use the same rules we generally use for longsword - they are simplest rules of all:

You can do anything so long as you do it safely. The judge awards a point when they think one has been scored. If you do something dangerous you get sent off.

End.

[Nikos]

I don't understand what the fuss is. Why not use the same rules we generally use for longsword - they are simplest rules of all:

You can do anything so long as you do it safely. The judge awards a point when they think one has been scored. If you do something dangerous you get sent off.

End.

Clearly we are heading that way, I was only putting forward some interesting ideas

[Caz]

Nick

By making suggestions and questioning the draft , which is all I've done, each item has been discounted...not discussed..

so it appears, to me at least, less like a "discussion..."

(and I think I aluded to this at the very start)

[Nikos]

I don't see that Caz, I never said, I won't use your ideas, not at all, I am questioning each point, including my own as we go along, until we come up with a system which is generally agreeable, I think you are mistaking discussion with hostility, which has never been my intention, ultimately there are problems with every way of doing something, so we have to make it all clear and then decide.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

I don't understand what the fuss is. Why not use the same rules we generally use for longsword - they are simplest rules of all:

You can do anything so long as you do it safely. The judge awards a point when they think one has been scored. If you do something dangerous you get sent off.

End.

so are there anny sticky points on what should be considdered safe?
grappling comes far up in my mind, some tossing and throws are unsafe if uncooperated.. but is pretty safe if both is more into it, wrestling that is.

will it beone hit, one kill.. or do you have a set amount of poins to reach.. or would you be going for amount of hitts during a period of time??

[admin]

There's no problem with saying "everything is allowed if you are careful and the judge will tell you when you scored a point".