Krieg is...

[bigdummy]

Also, what is krieg when you have mismatched weapons (which is fairly rare in the fechtbuchs) like a bill vs. a short sword say.

[Brewerkel]

Also, what is krieg when you have mismatched weapons (which is fairly rare in the fechtbuchs) like a bill vs. a short sword say.

It better be a +5 sword of defense or you're in deep shit as the swordsman. Dagger vs sword, longsword vs pollaxe or spear; yeah that could work. Single handed sword vs bill.... not good. Treatises don't cover situations like this as common sense dictates voiding and withdrawl.

Krieg would be the whole time one is in range of the other's weapon, wouldn't it?

[bigdummy]

I often felt the same way when I was in a bar and someone developed an instant dislike for me and armed themselves with a pool cue, a bottle, an ash-tray, or a knife. Experience has taught me that voiding and withdrawal are not always possible, unfortunately.

The fechtbuchs cover very little cross-weapon fighting that I have seen, evenly matched or otherwise.


The question is a technical one though. During the slaughter of the sword-armed gentleman by the luckier one with the spear, would the spearman be in krieg while the swordsman remains outside? Would they both be in krieg when and only when the sword touched the spear? Etc.

BD

[Brewerkel]

I often felt the same way when I was in a bar and someone developed an instant dislike for me and armed themselves with a pool cue, a bottle, an ash-tray, or a knife. Experience has taught me that voiding and withdrawal are not always possible, unfortunately.

Too true.

The fechtbuchs cover very little cross-weapon fighting that I have seen, evenly matched or otherwise.


The question is a technical one though. During the slaughter of the sword-armed gentleman by the luckier one with the spear, would the spearman be in krieg while the swordsman remains outside? Would they both be in krieg when and only when the sword touched the spear? Etc.

BD

Fiore has plays with dagger vs sword, sword vs (thrown) spear, sticks or rough branches vs daggers and spears. He mentions how to deal with downright blows of the pollaxe with a sword. He also plays sword against lance in the mounted section. Finally he deals with a mounted attack while on foot using a weird spear/staff weapon. Talhoffer has some mismatched weapons too IRRC.

Oops gotta run.


Kel

[Brewerkel]

Sorry I had to dash yesterday... I'm surprised none of the Germans has jumped on this yet.

I believe the krieg would start once the spearman attacked the swordsman. The swordsman would be forced to bind to maintain some ephemeral control on where the spear was going next. So then, from the moment of engagement, not from the bind.

Comments?

[Rakkasan]

That sounds about right to me. Krieg is the war. The Germans named it that, I believe, because it's when the fighting is really going down in earnest. Once you're attacking to "kill" and defending your life from real, threatening strikes...that's the war.

[Steven H]

Hmmm,

The term krieg shows up in two different contexts:
It is a technique following the Zorn bind that involves winding
AND it is a range at which combat occurs
I'm not sure when the latter actually shows up, though. (I don't remember it earlier than Meyer, (could be wrong though)).

I define the range as binding range. If your that close and not bound then the other guy needs to be dead already otherwise you need to be changing range fast (in or out).

[Paul B]

Hmmm,

I define the range as binding range.

I would agree with that, if you aint bound, you had best be doing somthing deadly.

[Harry]

krieg = an armed conflict after a declaration of war between two partys

[David Welch]

I always try to frame this stuff in a modern context to get it straight in my head. In this case that would give me positioning for an advantage, contact, and breaking contact. So to me, "krieg" is everything that happens between the time one of us attacks, and one of us breaks off contact. If one of you swings at the other and the other one jumps back and there is no bind or other contact at all, you have still had your positioning for an advantage, contact, breaking contact and have returned right back to positioning for an advantage. I don't think what weapons are being used really matters in that.

[Harry]

Also, what is krieg when you have mismatched weapons (which is fairly rare in the fechtbuchs) like a bill vs. a short sword say.

and now my serious answer.... you can't place such a question and limit the answer, because "krieg" starts for everyone at a different moment.

if you have quick feet, fast eyes and a good swordmanagement, your krieg will be start 3 m away from the opponent because you will try to hit your opponent from farer distances

if you have a good "bind"controll and a soft feeling hand which notice the small pressuredifferences, your krieg will start after the blade contact.

and so on.... especially for this situation (mismatched weapons) you also can not limit the answers, because you have to give at least 2 of them. one for the side with the longer and one for the shorter wepaon.

longer weapon: krieg is starting at least 3 m away from the tip of your weapon

shorter weapon: krieg is starting after you have past his tip

[Steven H]

Historically where does the definition of Krieg come from?

I know Meyer describes ranges - zufechten, krieg, abzug.

But who else?

-Steven

[Paul B]

ooops, double post

[Paul B]

From Mike Rasmusen's translation of Goliath:

13 Verso
Text on the War
When the war roams above, below he will be shamed.
[14 recto]
Der Krieg, das sein die Winden, und die arbait die daraus geet, mit dem / ort zu den vir plossenn, und den trieb also, wen du mit dem zornhau, / einhauest, Als pald er denn versetzt, so far vol auf mit den armen, / unnd wind im denn ort am schwert oben ein zur obern plos, seiner / lincken seiten, Setzt er denn den obern stich ab, so pleib also steenn in den / winden mit dem gehultz vor deynem haupt, und las den ort nider sinckn / zu seiner lincken seitenn, Volgt err den mit der versatzung deinem schwert / nach, so such mit dainem ort die undern plos, seiner rechtenn seiten, Volgt / er dan furpas mit der versatzung dainem schwert nach, So var auff / mit dem schwert, auf dein lincke seiten, und heng im den ort oben ein / Zur obern plos, seiner rechten seyten, also wirt er mit dem krigk oben / und niden beschempt, ist das du in anders recht treybst,


The War is the Winding and the work to the four openings with the point that comes from it, and deploy this thus: when you strike with the Wrath Strike, as soon as he displaces then drive full forward with your arms and immediately wind the point high on his sword to the upper opening on his left side. If he then displaces the high stab, then stay standing in the wind with your hilt in front of your head, and let your point sink below to your left side, if he follows after your sword in displacement, then drive on to his left side with the sword and send the point up to his upper right opening, thus will he be shamed with the war high and low, in that you drive properly from one to the other.

[Paul B]

My crap translation of Dierk's decent translation:

14 r
The war is synonymous with the wind and the attacks following from it with the point against four openings.

[Andreas Engström]

Historically where does the definition of Krieg come from?

I know Meyer describes ranges - zufechten, krieg, abzug.

But who else?

-Steven

Who else describes "krieg", using that specific term? Döbringer, Ringeck, von Dantzig, Lew, Goliath and Speyer. For example. Perhaps it would be a shorter list to enumerate what (full-length) manuals in the Liechtenauer lineage that don't use the term. I don't think Paulus Kal does (but his manual is rather short on text and heavy on magnificent illustrations). Talhoffer (Thott) quotes the Zedel on it but I don't think he writes any gloss for it.

-Andreas Engström

[Steven H]

So it sounds like Meyer may be the only one who uses krieg to define a range of combat. All the others use the term to describe a particular technique in the Zorn plays.

Which reinforces in my mind the conclusion that the essential aspect of Krieg is the bind - form which to wind and thrust.

-Steven

[Richard Strey]

Steven,
as I see it, "Krieg" isn't a particular play from the Wrath Cut. It is -as the example Paul B gave above- what you do when winding and the attacks that develop out of this. In many medieval fencing texts, concepts are described not by talking about the concept itself, but by stating several examples. Here, the Wrath Cut example is the most obvious: It doesn't mean "Krieg is when you come from the Wrath Cut and bind...", but rather "Krieg is *for example* when you come from a Wrath Cut and bind...". Mostly you'll enter Krieg via someone doing a Wrath Cut, but really, it doesn't matter. The *bind* matters. Krieg is fighting from the bind.
And thus, it describes a tactical situation, as well as a range.

[Barca]

Historically where does the definition of Krieg come from?

I know Meyer describes ranges - zufechten, krieg, abzug.

Hi Steven,

IMHO Meyer makes it very plain that the Zufechten, Handtarbeit (he prefers this term to 'Krieg') and the Abzug are phases of the fight rather than strictly ranges.

We begin the fight through Zufechten (someone closes the distance with an attack), the serious business is done during the Handtarbeit (binding, winding, twitching etc leading hopefully to wounding or scoring a touch on the opponent) and then we get the hell out of Dodge without being struck during the Abzug (withdrawal) phase.

Obviously this is linked to distance, but my understanding is these terms refer to the stages of the fight, and not strictly physical distance per se.

Cheers,

[bigdummy]

Steven,
as I see it, "Krieg" isn't a particular play from the Wrath Cut. It is -as the example Paul B gave above- what you do when winding and the attacks that develop out of this. In many medieval fencing texts, concepts are described not by talking about the concept itself, but by stating several examples. Here, the Wrath Cut example is the most obvious: It doesn't mean "Krieg is when you come from the Wrath Cut and bind...", but rather "Krieg is *for example* when you come from a Wrath Cut and bind...". Mostly you'll enter Krieg via someone doing a Wrath Cut, but really, it doesn't matter. The *bind* matters. Krieg is fighting from the bind.
And thus, it describes a tactical situation, as well as a range.

Very well put Richard.