Opinion on Ochs Video - ARMA thread

[Anders Linnard]

People can publish things when they like. It's no biggie. I have nothing against Arma. The Arma people I have met are the same as everyone else. Tomek, Bart, Axel, David are or have all been members. Good HEMAists as well.

I have come up with a fair bit of interpretation. Come to conclusions regarding fencing and manuals. At every event I go to I bounce it against someone (sometiems literally). Or I test it with my students and co-trainers. They have usually tried it as well. I have never had such a delusion of grandeur to assume they have never done the same movement themselves. Simply because I assume they have gone through the exact same thing of trial and error. Especially with a torn and worn cut like the krump. And even if they may not call my krump a krump, it doesn't mean it is unique. They may call it by another name, or simply call it crap. But I am pretty sure most interpreters have thought of it and any fencer who has sparred has done it numerous times.

[Fab]

I made a lengthy response to Stevie's post, but then decided not to send it. Not on this thread, at least - those who know where to look for, will be able to continue on this discussion.

[Anders Linnard]

Not on this thread, at least - those who know where to look for, will be able to continue on this discussion.

You elitist Frenchman!!!!

/A

[Fab]

You elitist Frenchman!!!!

/A

Very much so. 'swhat makes all my charm, no ?

[bigdummy]

Be sure and fling a few scraps down into the mud when you've sorted it all out for all the pariah dogs of the HEMA world

[admin]

Of course if I'm even luckier I'll get daft gulible HEMA types to invite me to every event expenses paid and will have all the other daft buggers buying me drinks all weekend, defending everything I say so I never have to justify my steeling of others work.


EDIT: I'm not lobbing flowers at anyone here, I do not know of anyone who has or suspect would do such a thing.

I do.

[admin]

Of course if I'm even luckier I'll get daft gulible HEMA types to invite me to every event expenses paid and will have all the other daft buggers buying me drinks all weekend, defending everything I say so I never have to justify my steeling of others work.


EDIT: I'm not lobbing flowers at anyone here, I do not know of anyone who has or suspect would do such a thing.

Precisely - is this an accurate description of HEMA's current development, or would it be possible to do so, is anyone doing precesely that and would they get away with it??

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Sadly there are people ripping off other people's research, building a reputation with it, and taking credit for it without giving credit.

What is at stake? Well, if you've worked hard on something then it's not nice to see someone else take it and get the credit for it. Call that pride if you will, but most of us do this as a hobby, so passion and pride and kudos are the currencies we trade in.

Personally I have been to about 20-30 events in the UK and abroad for free, have a fairly well known group and have some pride in what I've done. That is quite a large reward for me - certainly it means more to me than any kind of rewards I can get at work. So the stakes may not be financial or Olympian, but on a personal level they are one of the most important things in my life.

[admin]

It's difficult to find the balance between cautious enough not to have your time wasted or worse, but also open / friendly enough to get the benefits which derive from cooperation.

Exactly.
This is the line I try to walk. I certainly don't divulge all of my opinions on Fiore's system at seminars and suchlike. I keep what I consider to be more advanced and sneaky things within Schola. But at the same time, I try to give at least an impression of my version of Fiore to outsiders. In some fundamental ways my version of Fiore is different to Rob Lovett's, Guy Windsors etc, and I am happy to discuss those differences (and have done) with those people and their students. But I only go to a certain level and keep the rest to myself and Schola, as I am sure Rob, Guy and others do too.

[Fab]

Exactly.

Now, I've been to a few seminars here and there, and there are things that I had been shown that I brought back, obviously. But in my classes I always try to say, when using something someone else had shown me, where and who it came from.

If by chance anyone has found something, anything, interesting in what I've presented or taught in Dijon or abroad, I'd expect that he'd give some credit and thanks (at least in his thoughts).


My version of Fiore - which has greatly benefited from Matt's, saying otherwisewould be lying - might also be different from his now, as it certainly is different from Rob's or Marco Rubboli's or Colin Richards' (or my Liechtenauer stuff and Michael huber's or Philippe's or Dave's or the Ochsen).

Though I'd still be interested in talking about these diferences

[bigdummy]

The only HEMA event I ever attended was the ARMA 'Southern Knights' event I hosted in 2004. I found them a free venue and a great hotel (in a former 19th century orphanage) in exchange for which I was allowed to humbly attend.

I was also asked once to help train a Celtic Re-enactment group in Austin some very basic techniques so they might be able to do better in their annual battle against a Roman re-enactment group. Which was amusing if not necessarily effective.

Since then I have a handful of friends who attempt to beat me in the head with padded wasters every Saturday and suss-out Lichtenauer with our wooden wasters every Tuesday. Which has been more than i expected and extremely rewarding. If not necessarily effective.

BD

[Claus Sørensen]

Hello!

What an interesting discussion? And what is it about those Arma guys? Let them keep their religion for themselves.

Just don't go as far as to make drawings of JC. We've had mixed succes with drawings here in DK when dealing with religions!

A comment on the "forthcoming" wonderfull new (never thought of before "Krumhau" ). If they believe that they've got somthing special here let them by all means do so. I am sure that they will eventually share it with us on their website! I am sure it will be a new and exiting thing within "their" organisation.

It is important here to state that I do believe that the articles on ARMA's website are meant for ARMA-members and people interested in their organisation only.

Now I am confident enough in my own interpretation of the art, that a statement like this doesn't make me jump out of my chair, and I am also fairly sure that "their" "new krumhau" won't change my interpretation, but who knows?

But I am "really" sad to hear all those people out there that feel threatened by the information that "ARMA" and JC has got a "new "interpretation of the krumhau!(according to "their" old one) Believe in your self people, if you do so, you couldn't care less about such issues, only feel slightly curious as you should be.

You might lean something, but then again you might not! Keep an open mind, because if you believe that you've got all aspects of the art right, then you are indeed special! (and wrong )

Best wishes

Claus

[scholadays]

Precisely - is this an accurate description of HEMA's current development, or would it be possible to do so, is anyone doing precesely that and would they get away with it??

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Sadly there are people ripping off other people's research, building a reputation with it, and taking credit for it without giving credit.

I was hoping that you'd say that - for it seems that ARMA are just protecting their efforts as everybody else does for the simple personal reasons everybody else does - I really see not particularly insidious motivation to hang onto information, particularly as we all have the same sources and have most likely come to the same conclusions anyway.

The only difference is, as usual, their motivations are wrapped, lets say, a little flambouyantly and can come across as somewhat patronising at times. But. hey, they obviously have a fairly vigorous marketing effort* so perhaps a little gift wrapping to make one seem special and different is no bad thing - I reckon the friction seems to occur because this manner doesn't seem to appeal to the tastes of many Euro practitioners round these parts.

Dunno why, for Schola also make a virtue of being truly different and special and much better than absolutely everybody else in the whole wide world.

It's just that in our case it's complely and utterly true.



*I'm sure everyone remembers the 'US citizens are decended from the Spartans' effort

[admin]

There is valid reasoning behind keeping some of your teachings secret. It's not pretentious, just good sense now, as it was back then.

[scholadays]

There is valid reasoning behind keeping some of your teachings secret. It's not pretentious, just good sense now, as it was back then.

Now, indeed, and there's a jolly interesting topic.

For are you in any part referring the the competative, sporty* side of HEMA? A desire to advantage one's own crew by retaininng a superior interpretation?



*horrors!

[Anders Linnard]

Claus,
I have a hard time imagining anyone feels threatened by Arma here. And I don't find the secrecy strange at all, although I myself have absolutely no problem with sharing information regarding my interpretations. They may do as they please. But I do find it silly that they think they know what everyone else is doing. And even more so that no one has even thought of it before. Especially when it comes to the krump. And although I don't get very upset, I embrace the opportunity to be condescending and patronising.

/Anders

[admin]

For are you in any part referring the the competative, sporty* side of HEMA? A desire to advantage one's own crew by retaininng a superior interpretation?

Yes, that is one reason. There are others.

[Hans Heim]

Hi all,

yes the Krumphau and the "Versetzen gegen die vier Huten" are a interesting thing.

If you look at Lecküchner (for example the cgm582, only took the transcription of the "Pragmatische Schriftlichkeit" http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de/cgm582.html) and what he tells us about how the Wecker (the Krumphau with the Langes Messer) "versetzt" den Stier (the Ochs with the Langes Messer) at 14 v and how the "Vier Versetzen" against the "Vier Leger" are described you will notice:

1. The Wecker is used against someone who stands (he is not moving in the Stier "stet er denne gegen dir..."
2. You jump with your right foot to your right side and hit his Messer with your "Lange Schneide".
3. Lecküchner advises you to "pruch wieder den eber und den stiren..." that it is better to use the Langort as to use a cut.

The Leküchner cgm582 manuals tells you that the mastercuts are against someone who stands there and waits for you at the guard xyz. The manual describes the Wecker and the use of the Wecker very clear, even clearer as any other manual of the longsword.

If the longsword manuals gave us not the informations that we need to get the "core" of one technique, I think it is a must for us to look into related material. If the related material is so clear as the Leküchner is, I can only come to the conclusion that our interpretation of the Krumphau or the Wecker is very valid.
I only have extended the Krumphau that I now use it with both edges from both sides and that I cant now the arc of the cut (just imagine that the wiper is not puttet to your windshild, it is bend away and it wipes through the air). So I use the wiper not only "vertical" in front of me, I use it diagonell that the Ort travels towards me or away from me.

BUT if you do not like the "Versetzen" with the cuts, only stab him like Leküchner told us.

Servus

Hans



[/list]

[scholadays]

Yes, that is one reason. There are others.

[Fab]

Funny Hans, I was just in the process of looking at Lecküchner to se what his views on the Wecker were (and trying to make msyelf a work document with the PS transcription and the images from cgm 582, as it revived my interest in Messer fighting). Thanks

[Andreas Engström]

I can only come to the conclusion that our interpretation of the Krumphau or the Wecker is very valid.
I only have extended the Krumphau that I now use it with both edges from both sides and that I cant now the arc of the cut (just imagine that the wiper is not puttet to your windshild, it is bend away and it wipes through the air). So I use the wiper not only "vertical" in front of me, I use it diagonell that the Ort travels towards me or away from me.

That sounds more or less exactly like the interpretation we (GHFS) favor as well.

I'm certainly interested in what JC may have to say, but I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of life-altering revelation..

-Engström