Medieval quivers

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Postby Stevie T » 03 Jan 2007 11:09

[quote="Anonymous"]Mine cost me about 3 hours of my time and a few odd scraps kicking around the house! :lol:

The advantage of making most of your kit yourself, the only thing I don't make are swords and armour, don't really have the skill for ither of them!

Sorry that was me, forgotten to log in first :oops:

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Postby Sekhemet » 03 Jan 2007 20:17

Yeah, I bought the circular leather insert and will make my own bag - there were some selling on ebay not so long ago, but someone had made them and put metal rings round the inside holes of the leather divider - also, you are at the mercy of whoever made it as to what material is is sewn out of - worst it could be is just plain cotton!!!

Historical Enterprises also do a version: http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... p=142&c=22

In terms of the quivers and where arrows are put - this image from the late 15th century shows archers sticking the arrows in the ground rather than having them in their belt. In terms of practicality, this means that the cock feathers can all be aligned, and thus shooting each arrow is vastly speeded up. It's what we all do when we line up for the speed-shooting in re-enactment displays.

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... ht=2&idx=2
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Postby Sekhemet » 03 Jan 2007 20:32

In fact, here's a piccy of all three examples - some arrows on the floor, some in a belt, and some contained in a bow bag such as the one discussed above: http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... ht=2&idx=2

The thing you need to consider is that while an archer might be able to put, say, 12 arrows in his belt and / or another 12-24 in his arrow bag, considering archers were expected to shoot at least 12 in a minute, I would assume that in a battle there would just be piles of arrows nearby for archers to grab handfuls of - either that, or some poor bugger running around replenishing the heaps of arrows from the stocks behind the battle lines.

Most of the time in 15th century pictures, both crossbow and longbow archers are not depicted as carrying arrows - either in a bag or otherwise.
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Postby Stevie T » 07 Jan 2007 13:39

- worst it could be is just plain cotton!!!

not worst - there is, I have been reliably informed, significant evidence out there for cotton, it just happens to be a more expensive, and therefore rarer material. This means that for the majority of Wars of the Roses re-enactment types it's in appropriate as they claim to portray impoverished lower orders.

If your portraying more middle class or southern European types then some cotton in your kit would not be unsurprising or inauthentic!

For those who study Fiore, assuming they are happy using non English or non Northern European sources, it would be most acceptable to have the odd garment made of or lined with cotton as this would be true for their 'masters' orogins as wellas the specific status of those who could afford personal tution or training space!

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Postby Stevie T » 07 Jan 2007 13:59

The thing you need to consider is that while an archer might be able to put, say, 12 arrows in his belt and / or another 12-24 in his arrow bag, considering archers were expected to shoot at least 12 in a minute, I would assume that in a battle there would just be piles of arrows nearby for archers to grab handfuls of - either that, or some poor bugger running around replenishing the heaps of arrows from the stocks behind the battle lines.


Are you assuming that archers were execpting to do nothing other during a battle than loose arrows?

IMO they had their 36 arrows, 12 of their own the rest provided by campaign leaders. These would be used in very specific volleys to counter charges and advancements made by opposing forces. There would be a time when archers were free to loose at will, however this would be when the enemy was at very close range and immediately prior to the arches engaging in hand to hand combat.

Charle ?II? of France insists that all his archers also be equiped with hand and a half swords (Powicke, 1962), English archers were reknowned for their sword and buckler and lines of pointed stakes. All of which would suggest that archers were also expected to engage in hand to hand combat, unlike modern re-enactment where most of the archers don't want to get involved in real up close combat.

Also think you'd be looking at 16 arrows a minute or more. I pick up a bow 2 perhaps 3 times a year and can put 12 arrowns in a target at 50 yards, and our more compotent archers can hit 18 with a certain regularity and this is lossing at a target, if your just clout shouting into a body of several hundred men I think 18 wouldn't be too hard for most period archers.

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Postby Fab » 07 Jan 2007 19:50

Stevie T wrote:Charle ?II? of France insists that all his archers also be equiped with hand and a half swords (Powicke, 1962), English archers were reknowned for their sword and buckler and lines of pointed stakes. All of which would suggest that archers were also expected to engage in hand to hand combat, unlike modern re-enactment where most of the archers don't want to get involved in real up close combat.


Burgundian ordinances of Duke Charles specified that two handed swords, as sharp as possible, were part of the standard equipment of archers.
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Postby Sekhemet » 07 Jan 2007 22:17

Hi Stevie,

Have to agree with you and your hand-to-hand archer information - I did not imply that all archers did was shoot arrows. However, when battles are going on for over an hour, 12/24/36 arrows do not last a long time, no matter how slowley the volleys are staggered.

I can't believe that all an archer had was the arrows put into his bag / through his belt.

I totally agree with the sword and buckler - I myself wear a buckler and falchion as well as a rondel - and actively encourage skirmishing archers in re-enactment battles!!

:)

P.S. In terms of coton, I'm not an expert in fabrics, but understand from other researchers that coton was a more high status fabric, and thus would have been used in high status clothing rather than bow bags and everyday items - like you said previously!
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Postby admin » 07 Jan 2007 22:35

Archers can certainly get rid of a lot of arrows in a short amount of time. Very few battles lasted hours, most lasted less than an hour, and much of that time was either spent out of distance, or engaged in hand-to-hand. Therefore the only margin where archers can really do their worst is while the enemy are advancing and in range. So we're talking about the amount of time that it takes men on foot to walk in a mass from 300 yards away to 20 yards away (and from about 100 yards away to 20 yards only the font couple of ranks of archers would be able to shoot at the enemy). I'm guessing that once the enemy were 20 yards away the archers would be either retreating or going for their hand weapons. So, the amount of time that archers had to do their work was not great - a few minutes.
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Postby admin » 12 Jan 2007 23:29

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Postby admin » 14 Jan 2007 20:20

Here is an original of one of those leather arrow spacers, from the Museum of London:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/ ... emId=12453
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re:

Postby bow-toxo » 25 Mar 2013 23:46

Stevie T wrote:One of the guys in Rosa Mundi has a repro of a quiver type thing found on the Mary Rose, I've used the general idea for reproducing my own.

Its bassically a tapering linen tube with a leather disc at the bottom to stop your arrows pushing through. There is the a second disc about 2/3 of the way up that has a dozen round holes in it. The top of the bag is pull closed by a draw string that attached to the bottom of the bag as well to create a type of shoulder strap.


Steve

I believe there were no arrow bags found on the Mary Rose. The discs were. They must have been used with bodkin point arrows or the theory that the arrow fletching could have been pulled through the holes doesn't wash because if broad heads were used, the fletching would be destroyed when inserted in the disc, unless the incomplete arrows were finished after being inserted. UInlikely. I don't consider the arrow bags quivers. Red kleather quivers were issued at Calais. French Franc-archiers had quivers as a cumpulsory part of their equipmenr and 18 arrows which may have filled them. Vihking raiders were described as customarily making noise with their quivers before engagement. There are lots of quivers, especially crossbow ones, shown in manuscripts.
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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby Jonathan Waller » 26 Mar 2013 18:05

Dad and I wrote a piece
The Personal Carriage of Arrows from Hastings to the Mary Rose
By Jonathan Waller and John Waller
Arms & Armour, Volume 7, Number 2 (2010)

Where we go in to some of our research and ideas on this subject.

It can now be downloaded free from the publishers website here.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/aaa/2010/00000007/00000002/art00005

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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby Alina » 30 Mar 2013 14:35

Jonathan Waller wrote:Dad and I wrote a piece
The Personal Carriage of Arrows from Hastings to the Mary Rose
By Jonathan Waller and John Waller
Arms & Armour, Volume 7, Number 2 (2010)

Where we go in to some of our research and ideas on this subject.

It can now be downloaded free from the publishers website here.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/aaa/2010/00000007/00000002/art00005

Jonathan


Cheers for that! Interesting paper.
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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby Harry » 03 Apr 2013 15:11

matt, do you only want quivers or also arrowbags?
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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby Jonathan Waller » 03 Apr 2013 15:28

One of the questions we ask in the article, is not an arrow bag that you wear and use as a quiver not a quiver? Does putting a top on a quiver? make it an arrow bag?
:D
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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby admin » 04 Apr 2013 10:30

Harry wrote:matt, do you only want quivers or also arrowbags?


Hi Harry,
Well I'm not sure I want either right now, as the thread was started in 2006. :lol:
However, feel free to post examples of both.
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Re: Medieval quivers

Postby Harry » 04 Apr 2013 19:19

uuuups :D then there was a grave digger at work :D :D
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