Knight Shop Practical Feders

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Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Jacob_Lee » 04 Jul 2013 10:08

http://www.thehemashop.com/index.php/weapons/blunt-steel-swords/federschwert/ks-practical-feder-2.html

and

http://www.thehemashop.com/index.php/weapons/blunt-steel-swords/federschwert/red-dragon-feder.html

The measurments are currently available only for the Meyer Feder, which is a total of 140cm with a "grip" length of 26cm, potentially without the pommel.

Given both my short stature (5'5 ish) and us learning the fiore system of longsword, these dimensions seems slightly too long, but I would like to see what we all think first.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby admin » 04 Jul 2013 11:46

Jacob, these are about the same size as the Regenyei feders we have in class, but the longer ones rather than the shorter ones.

I suppose it is possible that the Knight Shop may offer a 'Fiore feder' in the future. ;)
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Jacob_Lee » 04 Jul 2013 12:24

admin wrote:Jacob, these are about the same size as the Regenyei feders we have in class, but the longer ones rather than the shorter ones.

I suppose it is possible that the Knight Shop may offer a 'Fiore feder' in the future. ;)


Thanks for mentioning that! I think I may have seen the longer one before when Martin's feder arrived. My only worry is the transition of length from the nylons, since 140 cm would be just above my collar bone if I were to keep my shoes on.

would a 15 cm difference from the nylons be that much of a difference? or am I just over thinking this?

I just contacted KnightShop via HEMAShop to see if their "Practical Feder 1" has shorter dimensions. If not then I'll just go with the "overcompensating" joke. The only other benchmarking feder I can think of that is around that price is the Hanwei Practical Feder, which I have heard little about apart from reading up on reviews back on 2010.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby the_last_alive » 04 Jul 2013 12:46

Jacob_Lee wrote:
admin wrote:Jacob, these are about the same size as the Regenyei feders we have in class, but the longer ones rather than the shorter ones.

I suppose it is possible that the Knight Shop may offer a 'Fiore feder' in the future. ;)


Thanks for mentioning that! I think I may have seen the longer one before when Martin's feder arrived. My only worry is the transition of length from the nylons, since 140 cm would be just above my collar bone if I were to keep my shoes on.

would a 15 cm difference from the nylons be that much of a difference? or am I just over thinking this?

I just contacted KnightShop via HEMAShop to see if their "Practical Feder 1" has shorter dimensions. If not then I'll just go with the "overcompensating" joke. The only other benchmarking feder I can think of that is around that price is the Hanwei Practical Feder, which I have heard little about apart from reading up on reviews back on 2010.


Ty, Matt and myself all have Regenyei feders around the same length as the nylons. Everyone elses is longer (afaik), but how much by varies.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby admin » 04 Jul 2013 13:06

Yeah, we all picked shorter feders which happen to match the nylons very closely.

Do not even touch the Hanwei feder, not even with someone else's member.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby the_last_alive » 04 Jul 2013 13:55

admin wrote:Yeah, we all picked shorter feders which happen to match the nylons very closely.

Do not even touch the Hanwei feder, not even with someone else's member.


I believe Ty ordered his to match the nylons. I just copied Ty's specs. Although, mine differs slightly as when asked if I wanted the pommel as part of the grip length I said yes.

Are they really that bad?
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Lemonaid » 04 Jul 2013 16:04

Hell yah they used to be absolutely that bad. Back in the SG8 days Nick and George used to fence with them, so i got a chance to see what a pair of them were like. Absolute noodly pieces of shite.. flexed *throughout* the length of the damn blade, would get notched up ridiculously easily.
Could be that newer ones were better, but now that there are such better options out there, a moot point surely..

Heh, reminds me of just how MUCH improvement there has been in simulator options..
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby tabiris » 15 Jul 2013 23:54

so, to get back on topic, has anyone had a go at these yet? The blade seems really long at 106cm, and the PoB of 11cm means it could be quite the hard hitter...
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby TyHar7 » 19 Aug 2013 10:50

the_last_alive wrote:
admin wrote:Yeah, we all picked shorter feders which happen to match the nylons very closely.

Do not even touch the Hanwei feder, not even with someone else's member.


I believe Ty ordered his to match the nylons. I just copied Ty's specs. Although, mine differs slightly as when asked if I wanted the pommel as part of the grip length I said yes.

Are they really that bad?


Wasn't intentional, just ended up being very close to the nylons. Also complete coincidence that it matched Matt's Feder, especially as he just picked the shortest he could find.

I'm sure I've got my specs somewhere if you want to make an order with Peter rather than the knightshop. However they did have a few on display at fightcamp. I didn't have a play myself, sure some of they other guys might have tho.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Paul B » 20 Aug 2013 08:07

I had a play with the display models at FC

The good-

They are a decent weight and acceptable balance (if a little blade-happy for a feder)

The build quality is good, especially for the price point.

General handling is good. Not fantastic, but good for the entry level it's intended for.

The bad -

The blade has a consistent taper, which puts the apex of the flex just past halfway, and its a smooth arc along the entire blade, not just the last 3rd

The quillons are cut from flat bar and have the corners slightly rounded. This makes them a bit harsh on the forearm for my taste (ymmv)

In conclusion -

Has promise, not there yet. Wait for the next batch and see.

To me, a budget sword/feder should be of lesser quality than a smith-made weapon but the price point should compensate for that enough that you don't mind.

At the moment it is better than the hawei by miles but as a cheap alternative to a Regenyei, the gap is still a little too wide and you will definitely want to upgrade ASAP if you get one.

If they can sort the thickness of the foible, it should solve the flex issue and alter the balance in favour of safety. If that happens, these will be a viable addition to the tool kit.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby admin » 20 Aug 2013 08:23

Yep, I'd pretty much echo what Paul says. Also on the plus side though I would note that the polish is better on these Indian-made weapons than on Peter's. But given that the KS weapons will retail at around £150 and the Regenyei weapons around £180, I'd say that the main advantage to the KS ones will be that they can be bought off the shelf and shipped to you immediately, whereas Peter is now taking about 4 months.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Paul B » 20 Aug 2013 12:39

Im concerned about these being pretty much a straight copy of Peter's sword design. Im assuming they bought a couple and sent them to india for reproduction and some of the finer details were missed.

Copyright/patent issue?
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Jacob_Lee » 20 Aug 2013 14:42

I don't think there'll be much of an issue with copyright and patenting. Considering most of what smiths do are following historical examples, it'll be very difficult to not include features that come out similar than other smiths.

The reason I say so is that swords mostly go into the category of artisan crafts, which, in most cases fall under creative commons licensing, unless if it's a design that is iconic to multimedia.

The only issue is when they start making the feders in the exact same process as Regenyei. Which is possible, but highly unlikely and too costly. That is when copyright and patenting can kick in.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby admin » 21 Aug 2013 12:49

Yeah.. a feder is a feder (and in any case Regenyei's and Ensifer's feders are the end result of collective feedback from dozens of people and groups all over the world). It would have to have some unique feature in order to even qualify for a patent and would probably be turned down even then. The fact is that you cannot stop anybody from copying/emulating a fairly basic, generic and historical practice sword.
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Re: Knight Shop Practical Feders

Postby Monzambano » 22 Aug 2013 22:10

Paul B wrote:Im concerned about these being pretty much a straight copy of Peter's sword design. Im assuming they bought a couple and sent them to india for reproduction and some of the finer details were missed.

Copyright/patent issue?


Being an awful bore here: A patent (in European law - US patents are different) are issued for a novel technical implementation; so if the Indian Feder looks like and acts like the Regenyei Feder, but was made by a different method, there is no patent issue. Anyway, fundamentally, unless Péter has come up with a new process (a "novel" process, a process that was not used before and is a non-obvious, outside-the-box way of solving a technical issue), Péter could not patent his Feder.
Copyright (in European law - US copyright law is different) protects the artistic expression of individuality. Ironically, artistry in emulating historical precedents precludes copyright, unless there is some other element - a distinctive finish, or proportions, or shape - that expresses individuality, and THAT is copied.
[This is why Dan Brown could totally rip off "Holy Blood Holy Grail" and not fall foul of copyright - he ripped off the story and the ideas, but those aren't copyrightable; the words were his own, and that's what counts.]
This situation is where brands (trade marks) come in: Peter's trade mark certifies his quality; if someone else tries to piggy-back on Peter's efforts by using his trade mark, that would fall foul of competition and truth-in-advertising - and common fraud.
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