Arming jackets

[MugginsToadwort]

My new armour is coming along nicely, but I need a new arming jacket for underneath. Anja made the last one, but she is fairly busy currently. Therefore I need to spend money- but who makes the best/most affordable/period jackets? This is for under a Schott-Sonnenberg/plain Maximillian suit.

James

[Payson]

Historic Enterprises. No unnecessary padding to bind arms and which doesn't fit anyway under properly fitted plate. http://historicenterprises.com/doublet- ... th=101_135

[admin]

Yep, under my armour I wear a completely unpadded arming doublet. You want it as tight as possible.

[MugginsToadwort]

Historic Enterprises. No unnecessary padding to bind arms and which doesn't fit anyway under properly fitted plate. http://historicenterprises.com/doublet- ... th=101_135

Hmm... Looks good, but on the pricey side. And likely more so with shipping. Will need to look at the christmas bonus...

[Wolfgang Ritter]

Okay, I'm nitpicking, but please make sure what you want. The term jack is mostly used for a textile armour, you don't need that sort of padded textile protection for plate armour.
If it's a doublet underneath plate armour I do recommend to have it measured properly = taking the measures face-to-face.
As far as I and others were able to research it, you'll have the leg-armour attached to the arming doublet as well.
You must have correct fit around the arms and shoulder section, otherwise you'll be handicapped with your movements; i.e. whenever you'll raise your arm, you'll raise the leg-armour as well if it doesn't fit properly.
Therefore your arm must fit rexactly at the shoulder point.

Get someone who is able to do a good 15th or 16th century doublet ansd ask him/her to do it with slight changes for your arming doublwet. The changes will be:
- a stiffer body part, I'll recommend linnen as wool is a bit too flexible and maybe stretches. Three, maybe four layers should be enough (depending on the thickness of the fabric);
- linen for the arms are good as well, but there wool with an inner layer of linen will do as well, as long as you make sure it's rather tight-fitting.
- if you only need it for armour not for reenactment purpose, it'll be enough to applicate small leather pieces on shoulder, upper arm, elbow etc. to put the laces for tying the armour through; you don't want to do eyelets through several layers of fabric.

[MugginsToadwort]

Okay, I'm nitpicking, but please make sure what you want. The term jack is mostly used for a textile armour, you don't need that sort of padded textile protection for plate armour.
If it's a doublet underneath plate armour I do recommend to have it measured properly = taking the measures face-to-face.
As far as I and others were able to research it, you'll have the leg-armour attached to the arming doublet as well.
You must have correct fit around the arms and shoulder section, otherwise you'll be handicapped with your movements; i.e. whenever you'll raise your arm, you'll raise the leg-armour as well if it doesn't fit properly.
Therefore your arm must fit rexactly at the shoulder point.

Get someone who is able to do a good 15th or 16th century doublet ansd ask him/her to do it with slight changes for your arming doublwet. The changes will be:
- a stiffer body part, I'll recommend linnen as wool is a bit too flexible and maybe stretches. Three, maybe four layers should be enough (depending on the thickness of the fabric);
- linen for the arms are good as well, but there wool with an inner layer of linen will do as well, as long as you make sure it's rather tight-fitting.
- if you only need it for armour not for reenactment purpose, it'll be enough to applicate small leather pieces on shoulder, upper arm, elbow etc. to put the laces for tying the armour through; you don't want to do eyelets through several layers of fabric.

I live a long way from Europe and a historically accurate re-enactment scene, so some of the "accepted wisdom" isn't readily available- we can research armour, but the undergarments are a little obscured...

My 14th century get-up uses a pourpoint and a heavy gambeson under mail, but I was looking at something a lot thinner under the 16th C stuff. My wife normally does the sewing, as she is prepared to work with natural fabrics and make patterns from pictures- nobody else really does such stuff around here. I'm not happy about off-the-shelf, but unless I wait for Anja to make time for more sewing (unlikely), I'm going to have to work with an overseas seamstress.

And I will be fighting in the armour. Legs are done, work very nicely on the pourpoint. Breastplate and backplate nearly ready, but everything else is slightly dependent on the arming doublet..

[Wolfgang Ritter]

Hi James,
I get the problem and I didn't want to sound like authenticity-police, but sometimes there is reason to be historically correct.....the arming doublet being one of these cases.
The doublet is essential part of clothing for both the 15th as well as the 16th century, there are differences but more in slight detail/style.
The general purpose for doublets is to uphold the hoses. In the 15th ct it's still part of the undergarment, i.e. you wear a jacket over it.

Now an arming doublet as being the "undergarment for battle" has some slight differences compared to a normal (= civilian) doublet: the laces for fixing the armour. But nevertheless it's part of the common clothing, i.e. upholding the hoses which would otherwise drop to the ground. At least in the 15th ct where the hoses are rather ending at hipbone level; it takes another decades (starting around the 1490s) until the joined hoses reach OVER the hip which allows them to stay in place without connected with a doublet; take a look at Breughels peasant's paintings or some of the Holbein paintings for example.

A doublet is tricky, but once you get the design right, fairly easy to sew.
If you look at a modern jacket you'll see the arms meeting the body at the side of the shoulder, more on the rounding of the shoulder.
A doublet will not work this way, as it restricts your movements. You'll be pulling up the leg armour whneever lifting the arms.
Therefore the arms must join the body at the upside of the shoulder, I think it's called the AC joint, where the acromion and the clavicula meet.
connecting the arm with the body there gives enough freedom to rotate without pulling the whole garment upwards.
Another important point is the gothic waistline; it's at elbow level, slightly between the end of the ribcasge and the bellybutton. This is the point where the body bends sideways and there you have a distinctive point in gothic silhouette. Most of the medieval clothing off the peg doesn't have this distinctive waistline, you'll need it with the correct fit for your doublet.

A good description for 15th century clothing is the "Clothing Guide for Men" from the Company of St. George, download here: http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/?q=en/Clothing_Guide_Download and then check pages 14ff. for some instructive infos on a doublet.
Another good (if not the best) DIY-Guide is Sarah Thursfields "Medieval Tailors Assistent" - feel free to ask for the pages about sewing the doublet via mail (wuritter@aol.com) if you don't want to buy the whole book.

[Wolfgang Ritter]

My 14th century get-up uses a pourpoint and a heavy gambeson under mail, but I was looking at something a lot thinner under the 16th C stuff. My wife normally does the sewing, as she is prepared to work with natural fabrics and make patterns from pictures- nobody else really does such stuff around here. I'm not happy about off-the-shelf, but unless I wait for Anja to make time for more sewing (unlikely), I'm going to have to work with an overseas seamstress.

And I will be fighting in the armour. Legs are done, work very nicely on the pourpoint. Breastplate and backplate nearly ready, but everything else is slightly dependent on the arming doublet..

14th century clothing - especially the military garment differs quite a bit from 15th, not to mention 16th ct style.
The 14th ct has a large transitional period where the mail+padded textile armour is substituted with plate armour. Around the 1360s to the end of the century there is a period which seems to be the height of wearing different sorts of protections: padded textile armour plus mail plus plate armour (which is covered with fabric for fashion reasons). 15th and 16th military garment is by far less "thickening" the silhouette. Therefore your 14th ct pourpoint/Gambeson combination will not work for Maximillian style armour (by the way pictures would be nice!)
Deborah Lough is highly recommended being a good professional tailor for padded garments - she should do a good arming doublet as well: http://www.deborahloughcostumes.com/paddedarmour/paddedarmourhome

[Dave B]

I certainly wouldn't disagree about Debee Lough, her husband is a freind of mine. However she had a seriously long waiting list last time I heard, and is probably too much of a perfectionist to get into doing something as fit-critical as an arming doublet without personal fittings.

I think someone who can sew would be a able to produce something based on the Medieval Tailors assistant and Wolfgang's advice. I've managed and my sewing isn't expert. I used heavy Buckram rather than linen for the interlining though.