Throwing Sottani.

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Throwing Sottani.

Postby Lyceum » 14 Apr 2008 15:22

Or howsoever they are called.

So exactly how do you throw these with speed and force towards an opponent? It's rather easy to cut through one to arrive at Finestra I've found but at times alittle awkward throwing (false edge) ones with the idea of scoring a hit.

What are your elbows like when doing so? straight all the way through? General delivery, how is it? And what do you use them for outside of parries and hand attacks?
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Re: Throwing Sotanni.

Postby Abomination » 14 Apr 2008 15:29

Lyceum wrote:What are your elbows like when doing so? straight all the way through?

That's pretty much what I do. Although my form is far from perfect
Lyceum wrote:General delivery, how is it?

Usually traversing off line more then closing distance

Lyceum wrote:And what do you use them for outside of parries and hand attacks?

Yes, that and rebats
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Postby Lyceum » 14 Apr 2008 15:40

Ah okay thanks. With the elbow thing, I'm worried that the motion is too pendulous, as in I'm actually shrugging the blade into the opponent?

Offline attacks do seem to be the best use of them actually, well at least that's the only way in which I can throw them and land the hit at least.
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Postby Abomination » 14 Apr 2008 15:44

Lyceum wrote:Ah okay thanks. With the elbow thing, I'm worried that the motion is too pendulous, as in I'm actually shrugging the blade into the opponent?

Offline attacks do seem to be the best use of them actually, well at least that's the only way in which I can throw them and land the hit at least.


If you bend your elbows it generally turns into a thrust. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, depends what you are trying to acheive.

For instance if you're aiming at the hands I'd say you've got a better chance of hitting with the cut.

However if you are aiming at the face / throat / body, an upwards thrust is very dificult to deal with.
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Postby Lyceum » 14 Apr 2008 15:47

Thrusts are something we've not at all experimented with outside of really slow drills and the like, I'd love to use them, but they're so dangerous in sparring, and they're incredibly quick. A friend and I were arsing about with soft foam poles (noy at all sword like) and two handed thrusts are shockingly insidious.

I see what you mean about turning them into punte, by adding alittle elbow the whole delivery changes.

Hmm..interesting. I think I'm going to concentrate on using them more in mulinellos etc.
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Postby admin » 14 Apr 2008 15:49

They are mostly for rebats and offending the hands and arms IMO. The 'trick' to accelerating the tip enough to actually cut is to use the leverage of your two hands on the hilt - push-pull.
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Postby Lyceum » 14 Apr 2008 15:51

admin wrote:They are mostly for rebats and offending the hands and arms IMO. The 'trick' to accelerating the tip enough to actually cut is to use the leverage of your two hands on the hilt - push-pull.


This is going to sound retarded, but could Bicorno help for this? cutting Sottani from Coda Longa (dextra) and then pulling into Bicorno or something?

I don't know my Bicorno is retarded. XD
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Postby admin » 14 Apr 2008 16:07

Not sure I understand - false or true edge? And strictly speaking, Coda Longa doesn't say it does sottani.
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Postby Lyceum » 14 Apr 2008 16:09

admin wrote:Not sure I understand - false or true edge? And strictly speaking, Coda Longa doesn't say it does sottani.


Sorry, not working from treatises here. The original question was pertaining to either.

However with regards to Coda Longa, if I'm left foot forward, Throwing true edges are rather easy and can easily go into d'Donna/Fenestra.

Even I'm not sure what the hell I visualised in the last post though. :S
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Postby Alberto » 22 Jun 2008 17:40

For whom it may concern, the word "Sotani" is associated to every cut starting from the bottom and going up. The targets should be starting from the knee and going up. Hands and hips (and, dragging the hit to the top, also armpits) are good targets.

They can be made with staright or reverse edge ("Filo dritto e filo falso"), both left or right, and they are naturally made as thinking that they are the reverse of Fendenti.

Starting from the "Coda Lunga e Distesa" guard, it should be a quite easy option, but they can also start from many other guards.

Hope it could be useful.
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Postby admin » 23 Jun 2008 10:19

Yet interestingly, in Fiore, the Coda Longa does not say it will make sottani, but rather fendenti and thrusts. Though of course it can make sottani - I just find it interesting that it does not list them, but rather other attacks.

My translation of what Fiore says for sottani is:
We are Colpi Sottani (Under blows), and we commence at the knee, and go for the middle of the forehead, for the path which is taken by the Fendenti. And for this way that we enter, by this path we return, or we will remain in Posta Longa.

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Postby Alberto » 25 Jun 2008 13:21

Hope we are looking at the same plate. Staying to Pisani Dossi:

Noy semo colpi chiamadi li sotani,
Che sempre may cerchamo de ferir le mani,
E dal zenochio in su facemo questione
E tornando cum fendenti fazemo lexione.


Actually, it is clearly saying that :

E dal zenochio in su facemo questione
E tornando cum fendenti fazemo lexione


So (the subject is "sotani"): from the knee and the upper parts we take parts,
And coming back with 'fendenti' we give lessons.


Than, for the coda longa:

Posta de coda lunga son in tera destesa,
Denanci e dedredo sempre io faço offesa
E se passo innançi e entro in lo fendent,
E’ uegno al streto zogho sença faliment.


The second step is crucial:

E se passo innançi e entro in lo fendent,
E’ uegno al streto zogho sença faliment.


It could be criptical to translate dircetly without interpratation of the text, but, it should be something similar to: "if I make a step forward entering into a fendente, I can enter into 'gioco stretto' without failing".
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Postby admin » 25 Jun 2008 14:36

My translation is from Getty ;).
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Postby Alberto » 25 Jun 2008 14:40

admin wrote:My translation is from Getty ;).


:lol:
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Postby Colin Richards » 05 Jul 2008 22:37

Hi Folks,

Your upward cut does not have to be that strong if the opponent slams down on your blade from above.

IMHO it is all to do with the footwork that you employ with all the cuts. My new footwork which I showed at Dijon, answers so many questions that I had before, I think I can start to see where everything fits in the system.

And it is working in sparring now ................. which leads me to think............... anyway...........

........................See my New Video in about to be released in 3 months for an explanation.

I think you could end in a Bicorno type position on both sides as well, try it out and see what you think.

All the best

Col
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Postby Motley » 07 Jul 2008 15:38

Colin Richards wrote:Hi Folks,

Your upward cut does not have to be that strong if the opponent slams down on your blade from above.

IMHO it is all to do with the footwork that you employ with all the cuts. My new footwork which I showed at Dijon, answers so many questions that I had before, I think I can start to see where everything fits in the system.

And it is working in sparring now ................. which leads me to think............... anyway...........

........................See my New Video in about to be released in 3 months for an explanation.

I think you could end in a Bicorno type position on both sides as well, try it out and see what you think.

All the best

Col
Author of Fiore Dei Liberi 1409 Wrestling and Dagger ( in two languages)


Hello Colin,

I have seen you mention your new footwork a few times and I have been meaning to ask what you have meant by it.

From this post I assume that you will have a DVD out soon covering it? Assuming that you use the same footwork though out the system, is it much different to what you showed in your dagger book?

Do you have anymore details you wish to share at the moment?

I'm just pretty curious ;-)

Regards,
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Postby Colin Richards » 07 Jul 2008 18:33

Hi Dan,

Where in the frozen north are you?

I have a DVD coming out a month or so after the end of the International Championship is finished. It is already shot 90% I just have to log it and then we start the editing. Logging is actually half finished.

Your right the DVD explains everything you need to know to start working with FD Liberi as far as I see it.

I explained the footwork at Dijon, it fits the whole system as far as I am concerned.

It explains why the sword is held so far back in PD Donna and in other postas and why the techniques are divided as they are. Why the all the cuts work, why there is no winding, why there is so few techniques (and other reasons are involved as well),

Basically the point is that you have to think other wise about what is meant about Fore del strada, that is moving "out of the way". The hint is in the single handed sword if you look carefully.

The answer is definitely in the dagger section but gets a little hidden because you want to see the techniques which always seems to lie with the hands.

More will be revealed at a later date.

Col
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Postby Motley » 07 Jul 2008 19:24

Hello Colin,

Thanks for responding.

The Frozen North is Canada, although it is not so frozen at the moment ;-)

Unfortunately Dijon is a little of the beaten track here ;-) so I did not see your presentation along with lots of other stuff I would have like to have seen. So I look forward to your DVD being available.

Cheers,
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Postby Colin Richards » 08 Jul 2008 07:25

Hi Motley,

I admire your restrained curiosity.

Where about in the land of Canada? I always wanted to visit, but no one wants a seminar there?.......................................................... yet

All the best

Col
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Postby Kit Houston » 13 May 2009 05:01

Matt – thanks for the Sottani description!!!!


I was taught, that when our swords get forced down from the cross, a blow or when we want to throw the point we come from under the opponent’s sword, past our knee and for the middle of the opponent’s forehead (throwing the point) or cutting through the arms.

We can end in long guard and follow the path created by the downward blow.

The speed of this interchange (and when generate from the opponents force) shoots the sword around with amazing force for both cuts and thrusts.

If done with the foot work and speed you also change the line, offend and defend and maintain leverage and advantage.

If you get my drift.

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