Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
Open to public view.

Fiore's system as though he had published it today

Away churlish beginner, this is Historic for a reason!
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You have not done your research, this already exists!
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I too think this would be a valuable addition to the Arts.
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Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Postby Mobius » 14 Jul 2015 12:14

I was looking at the excellent resource made available at this very site which reproduces the Getty version with English text. I use this as my main reference point because it is as close as I can get to the source without learning Italian, but I always have to re-translate everything in my head into a modern understanding.

Is there room for a book that recreates the images in photography, re-describes the text in modern syntax and interpretation and lays out the book in clear format - without actually adding in one's own approach. I've seen a fair few interpretations of the work that describe it within a personal system of swordsmanship ( including, history, basics, warm-ups, safety, etc ) and a fair few attempts to recreate a kind of historically accurate version.

Although the latter approach is my favourite I look at the beautiful images and wondered if anyone had done a like for like rendition of the work in clear photography and plain modern English? It would be as though a modern publisher printed Fiore today direct from the treatise.
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Re: Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Postby tea » 14 Jul 2015 17:55

How you photograph the images, and how you translate the text into plain modern English, both impose an interpretation.

A very careful academic translation can avoid the latter, but that has its own issues. Those tend to be full of footnotes, slightly odd phrasing, and detailed asides to explain how the translation was constructed. They're extremely useful - but not a simple reading source for training from.

Once you simplify it and make it easily understandable, you're generally adding aspects of your own interpretation in how you clarify and summarise.

Similarly with photographs. The art in the treatise isn't perfectly clear, and how you choose to pose your models and photograph them can encourage different interpretations of the same play. This is doubled if you try and fill in extra images - at that point you're documenting how you interpret each part of the MS.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons that people who produce full editions tend to be clear they're interpreting the MS as they do so - it's simply academic honesty.
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Re: Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Postby Mobius » 15 Jul 2015 13:49

I think you are right but I don't have an issue with interpretation, just something that has a smaller level of personal interpretation.

My thought was that Fiore intended the Fior di Battaglia to work as a method, as he laid it out and described it. If one can render that intent in a modern context then you remain close to the original without adding a whole new training program or learning structure. It would be some middle way between the source, an academic translation and a whole new training method based upon the source.

I also thought it would be so easy to create I was surprised not to be able to find something like it. Maybe that is down to demand.

The image that got me started on this was Posta di Bicorno. Obviously the three images are all different and difficult to interpret but at least with a photograph the anatomical interpretation is clear - it is shown in one way and then can debated from there.
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Re: Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Postby Brian Stokes » 16 Jul 2015 06:32

Hey Mobius,

I have most all of the sections in the Getty, save for the dagger, translated and passed through some of the very best medievalists out there. Is there a particular section you are needing?

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Re: Il Fior di Battaglia recreation as modern text

Postby Mobius » 16 Jul 2015 15:40

Thank you for the offer, sir.

I'm not after any particular section until my knowledge and skill levels increase a good deal more.

As a designer, professionally speaking, I am always looking to improve the things I have an interest in. Never enough to simply admire the great manuscript of Getty I just find myself thinking wouldn't it be nice if...

At some point I will try a page or two to see if it looks and works, at that time I will be back in touch :)

Thanks.
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