Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

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Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Brian Stokes » 11 Jun 2014 16:04

Good day to all my fellow Fiorians ...

I have found two transcription errors used in present translations that appear in the descriptive paragraph for Total Iron Gate from the Getty manuscript. Many current translations are based upon these errors and the words 'short' and 'one' proceeding 'not too long' appear therein. [For example Wiktenaeur reads ... The first one is Tutto Porta di Ferro (Full Iron Door), which stays in great strength and she is good for waiting for every hand weapon; long and short and if she has a good sword, not one that is too long. The two words that have been incorrectly transcribed and therefore incorrectly translated are curta and una. As you will see in the pictures below these words are actually e an ta and cuna.

e an ta.jpg
e an ta
e an ta.jpg (8.91 KiB) Viewed 3098 times


cuna.jpg
cuna
cuna.jpg (9.71 KiB) Viewed 3098 times


Ergo, the words 'short' and 'one' do not appear in the text. To that end I provide my present working translation for the affected line which is:

....The first is total iron gate which is very strong and is good to wait in for every long handed weapon if yours is a good sword that is not held long....

I used the word 'present' in referring to my current translation as I have yet to pass this by the professors reviewing my work. 'E an ta' was somewhat difficult to translate and 'cuna,' at least according to Florio's 1611 dictionary, means to 'cradle.' For the latter word I used the modern term 'held,' although 'cradle' might actually work as I see that the master in this guard is 'choking' his blade.

Cheers,

Brian
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Michael Chidester » 20 Jun 2014 13:04

Very interesting. There are some "a" examples comparable to that, but it's not the tyical shape--it looks a lot more like a typical "c" and an initial minim of another letter. I think it's probably "e curta", especially since the Morgan clearly says "e curta".

Agreed on "cuna"--initial "u" characters tend to have sharp diagonal initial minims like "v", not c-shaped flourishes. It's either "cuna" or "ana", and the morgan clearly has four minims, arguing for "cuna".

Morgan text:

12r-detail.jpg
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Batfink » 22 Jun 2014 13:34

Interesting... Any thoughts on if this means anything for interpretation of the use of this guard?
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Brian Stokes » 24 Jun 2014 11:44

Once again looking at the script - it is three separate words and not curta. This is particularly apparent when looking at the original which is where I first noted it. The "e" features the top "tail" whereas the c does not and the letters are not connected together as seen in curta from the Novati. Also that is definitely an "an" and not a "ur."

I think one of the fundamental errors made is the assumption that the all of the manuscripts must "match." Ergo I believe that what the Novati says should not be used to explain the Getty and vice-versa.


Batfink wrote:Interesting... Any thoughts on if this means anything for interpretation of the use of this guard?


When the sword is held with the handle 'choked' which hold places the pommel under the left forearm the ability to spin the blade around to parry is substantially faster than if you hold it as you would normally hold a two-hander. This coincides with both the picture and the translation I am presently using [posted above and subject to change once I receive back my academic translation], Hold the blade at its cross, put your left hand right against your right hand, pull the blade in close and the pommel up, and you will look as drawn in the manuscript.

Again, as previously stated, this method of holding a two-hander allows for extremely fast parries to be accomplished while taking very little effort to effectuate.

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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Michael Chidester » 24 Jun 2014 15:09

Brian Stokes wrote:Once again looking at the script - it is three separate words and not curta. This is particularly apparent when looking at the original which is where I first noted it. The "e" features the top "tail" whereas the c does not and the letters are not connected together as seen in curta from the Novati. Also that is definitely an "an" and not a "ur."

I'm talking about the Morgan, not the Novati. Also, I didn't say that part is "ur", I said it's "cur". The complete phrase you highlight is e curta, not just curta.

Brian Stokes wrote:I think one of the fundamental errors made is the assumption that the all of the manuscripts must "match." Ergo I believe that what the Novati says should not be used to explain the Getty and vice-versa.

The Morgan and the Getty many times do not match, but they generally do so it works as a starting point.
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Brian Stokes » 24 Jun 2014 18:02

I did indeed incorrectly refer to the Novati and not the Morgan - apologies.

If I seem 'short' in my responses I apologize as I am banging away on my iPhone upon which I am not very good at typing.
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Michael Chidester » 25 Jun 2014 00:14

To be clear, here's roughly what I think is written there:

Untitled.png
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby Brian Stokes » 03 Jul 2014 03:10

Mike - I'm lost as to the meaning of your last post.
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Re: Transcription and Translation Errors of Total Iron Gate

Postby admin » 11 Sep 2014 11:50

I find this very interesting from a point of view of the manuscript history, rather than the fencing itself - Morgan, which is probably the oldest version, clearly says 'curta', ie. short. If We are asserting that Getty uses a different word, then to me those most likely conclusion is that Getty got it wrong... We know that these manuscripts, just like most medieval manuscripts, were copied and re-copied, and we also know that the versions of Fior di Battaglia surviving today do not really correspond to the copies referred to in the Ferrara Library, which were the originals owned by the Este family. Equally, Morgan and Paris are not dedicated to Niccolo d'Este. In short, we know copies were being made.
It seems to me therefore that if this one word is wrong in Getty, then that is probably an error - Morgan clearly has it as 'curta' and that is what actually makes sense in the sentence - this is why native Italian speakers naturally understand it to mean 'curta', because that's what makes sense in context.
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