Two noob questions about Fiore

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby Carletto » 03 Aug 2013 12:18

1) does the fact that he doesn't show the starting guard of each play mean I can do from any guard I like, as far as it works? (case point: I have a strong preference for posta frontale, posta breve, posta longa, the porte di ferro and dente di cinghiale)
2) when he crosses on the inside (in sabre terms), with the right foot forward, is it possible that he started from a right foot forward guard or more likely there is a step in the incrosada?

Thanks
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Re: Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby JimC » 03 Aug 2013 12:34

Fiore says that the plays (scholar of the remedy master) come from the crossings (remedy master). How you get to each of the crossings is never discussed but I don't believe it matters all that much, and they can arise from any number of reasons and actions.

This is also true of a right foot forward cross. Fiore is silent on how you get there and I believe there are any number of reasons and actions that lead to it.
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Re: Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby Carletto » 03 Aug 2013 19:37

makes sense to me, thanks
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Re: Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby CPenney » 06 Aug 2013 01:49

Hi, Carletto. Just a couple of observations on your two questions

The plays descend from the Master plays that FIore shows at the beginning of each section. FIore calls these Masters the Remedy Masters, meaning they have made a move to defend against an initial attack. This is most blatantly obvious in the dagger section, where, in the Getty he numbers the Masters from 1-9, then shows plays (and contrary plays) that come from these "Remedy" Master Plays.

For the sword, it's a little less clear, as FIore shows a number of crossings and other Master plays, which are also remedy master plays (meaning they show the defence against an attack), though in some cases, both figures wear a crown (meaning that either one or the other player can make the plays in question.)

FIore explains how he organized his treatise(s) in the introduction to the manuscripts, describing the "four masters of the duel" and how to tell each one from the other.

For each sword guard, FIore does give his ideas for what each guard could be used for. For example, for posta breve, he says it is good for making thrusts, gives us no indications of defending from this guard, and even tells us that it is more appropriate to use in armour.
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Re: Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby Carletto » 07 Aug 2013 18:48

Thanks
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Re: Two noob questions about Fiore

Postby admin » 02 Sep 2013 12:24

I haven't anything really to add to the above replies (which is good!) :).

From my perspective there are really only two types of sword bind with the point up in Fiore's longsword and this is why he shows almost all the plays from thise two starting points - either with the same foot forward as the side of the bind, or the opposite foot forward. This dictates what you can do from that point.

Regarding how you get to a bind, there are lots of ways, explained in detail in the Bolognese sources for example, but essentially they break down into:
1) blocking an attack in opposition on top of the opponent's blade
2) having an attack blocked in opposition with their sword on top of yours
3) deflecting an attack from underneath with your blade under theirs
4) having an attack deflected from underneath with their blade under yours

And there are other ways, but they are the principle ones, IMHO.
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