2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Motley » 02 Jul 2013 20:15

Posta Breve tells us it can thrust. Nothing about covering or being defensive in nature, regardless of whether you start or end there. There is no indication in any of the images of Posta Breve that it is 'framed' to one side or the other. The best we can tell, given the usual pedantry over drawn images, is that it is in the center. Added to the fact that middle thrusts are said to start there and it is grouped with the 'centerline' guards else where. Trying to claim that is it framed is altering its basic nature.

If we are wanting to look for Posta to describe end positions to cover/parry/beat in perhaps we should look to Posta that at least use some defensive language?

The problem with saying cover in 'Breve' as a shorthand is that it is misleading and people try to do it and end up being very literal, covering in a retracted position too close to themselves (cover in Breve -> what does Breve look like -> all pulled back -> I'll try and cover like that -> how did he hit me?). In the scrambiar the hands are pushed somewhat away to perform a safe cover not retracted like in Breve.

The posta descriptions tell us what they are good for and what we can do from there. Breve is a fluid guard that looks to enter with a thrust. That is it, why make it more?
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 02 Jul 2013 20:52

Motley wrote:Posta Breve tells us it can thrust. Nothing about covering or being defensive in nature, regardless of whether you start or end there. There is no indication in any of the images of Posta Breve that it is 'framed' to one side or the other. The best we can tell, given the usual pedantry over drawn images, is that it is in the center. Added to the fact that middle thrusts are said to start there and it is grouped with the 'centerline' guards else where. Trying to claim that is it framed is altering its basic nature.

Exactly. Because the poste masters are positions to adopt as the enemy comes into measure, they are not exactly the same as the end points of blows and covers. The only posta which may tell us that it makes a good end point for covers is Posta Frontale, and Posta Frontale gives us plenty of things to do when starting in that position. But for practical and theoretical reasons, one often reaches positions which resemble the poste by striking and covering. Fiore is explicit that the staff parry does not end in Tutta Porta di Ferro, but in a position somewhat like it.

I'm not comfortable with describing every cover with a posta name, but I think that "like posta X" and "a sort of posta Y" are useful shorthand when communicating in writing. This doesn't give a good name for every cover, and it can be misleading if you take it literally. But “you would prefer another jargon, a rigorous jargon? Then name the system.”
Last edited by Sean M on 02 Jul 2013 21:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 02 Jul 2013 21:11

admin wrote:
Sean M wrote: Manciolino seems to prefer rising falsi in his take on the simplest possible way to defend yourself with a sword


Well let's remember that Fore also uses false-edge 'rebats' to defend, both with the sword two-handed on foot and with the one-handed sword mounted. Fiore's one-handed sword on foot section is very small - it shows one way that you can use a one-handed weapon to defend yourself, but if we take the source as a whole, including what he shows mounted and the two-handed stuff as well, then there is a pretty broad repertoire there.

I am familiar with Fiore's sottano falso parry, but I was talking specifically about each master's attempt to synthesize how to defend yourself with a sword into the smallest possible system. When one compares two martial arts, one will often find many similar techniques, but each art will usually focus on different ones.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 13 Jul 2013 12:57

Motley wrote:The problem with saying cover in 'Breve' as a shorthand is that it is misleading and people try to do it and end up being very literal, covering in a retracted position too close to themselves (cover in Breve -> what does Breve look like -> all pulled back -> I'll try and cover like that -> how did he hit me?). In the scrambiar the hands are pushed somewhat away to perform a safe cover not retracted like in Breve.


This.

Also, the whole thing about the relation of Aristotelian mechanics is an interesting interpretation which probably has a lot going for it, but it is just an interpretation. I think we have to be cautious when taking that idea (i.e. that all guards form the beginning and end points of movements) then use it as the basis for extrapolating actions that are not specifically described in the text. My approach is to make sure to follow what Fiore writes specifically before extrapolating other actions based on poste that one feels might go together. These extrapolated actions should be built upon the things he does say, and should not contradict anything in the text (i.e. in this case, I don't think breve is the best example for describing the scambiar, for the reasons you point out.)
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