2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Thearos » 05 Feb 2013 21:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EerANVZRypM
(Artes Belli)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXoaQYb_j4
(Swordschool)

The French group seems very scrupulous with form, in cutting / parrying upwards into exactly the form of the visual source. Is that necessary ? Does the drawing actually represent the exact orientation of the sword when the parry+passing step is used ?
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 06 Feb 2013 00:39

Hi, Thearos. Thanks for pointing out these videos. I think they are both definitely interesting. Looking at the first (Artes Belli) video, and looking at the original source material, I think it is important to resemble the actual drawings, but you can only take that so far, as things that are obviously not realistically drawn. I like how they follow the source material, though I see little diferences, which I personally consider important, like how, for the third play (starting at 2:24), he does not pass forward with his left foot to strike, while the scholar in the manuscript clearly does so.

For both videos, they give a good overview of the plays, though they do not go into any interpretation of why one might choose one play over another. The text in the Getty (which the Swordschool video references) implies that if a hundred attackers come he could do the basic cover/thrust to the chest/face. What then, is the purpose of the variations?
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby admin » 21 May 2013 12:06

Thearos wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EerANVZRypM
(Artes Belli)


Agh, that music!
Their general interpretation looks basically similar to ours. I don't agree with their second play, because their attacker ends up the wrong way round.. The attacker in the source is left foot forward and facing the other way (suggesting perhaps a cut from the left). The only way you can reconcile this is to say the attacker took a passing step backwards after their attack was parried.
I would say the exact same thing for the sixth play - the attacker should be giving this from the left, and the response is almost a single-time counter-cut, bouncing off the blade and into the person. The elbow push is probably also against a cut from the left, though it can be done (more awkwardly) against the cut from the right.
Their execution of the arm-wrap is poor (I guess they haven't studied the dagger, as they've missed the point of the ligadura mezzana - Guy Windsor shows it better in the second video with Ilkka), but otherwise I basically agree with the general interpretation and what they are doing is quite similar to what we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXoaQYb_j4
(Swordschool)


Guy's interpretation looks basically the same as mine, with only a couple of small differences.

The French group seems very scrupulous with form, in cutting / parrying upwards into exactly the form of the visual source. Is that necessary ? Does the drawing actually represent the exact orientation of the sword when the parry+passing step is used ?


Well.. I teach it a little differently - as I teach it, at the moment of impact the two blades form an X - a true cross as Silver would call it. Your defending sword is in something like high Tierce. Immediately after that contact I then switch to the one-handed Fenestra. This is essentially the same as what Guy seems to be doing in the second video.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Motley » 25 May 2013 17:57

admin wrote:
Well.. I teach it a little differently - as I teach it, at the moment of impact the two blades form an X - a true cross as Silver would call it. Your defending sword is in something like high Tierce. Immediately after that contact I then switch to the one-handed Fenestra. This is essentially the same as what Guy seems to be doing in the second video.


This, IMHO.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby JimC » 01 Jun 2013 10:24

Motley wrote:
admin wrote:
Well.. I teach it a little differently - as I teach it, at the moment of impact the two blades form an X - a true cross as Silver would call it. Your defending sword is in something like high Tierce. Immediately after that contact I then switch to the one-handed Fenestra. This is essentially the same as what Guy seems to be doing in the second video.


This, IMHO.


Ditto.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Joeli » 01 Jun 2013 16:43

Does anyone have video footage of Fiore's sword in one hand free fencing?
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 08 Jun 2013 01:34

Joeli wrote:Does anyone have video footage of Fiore's sword in one hand free fencing?


AEMMA do free fencing with a one-handed sword, based on Fiore. Check out the "armingsword" videos.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTUaDGqZEFviZE5K4V-dIhAqGd-oCo2Xa
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Joeli » 08 Jun 2013 04:57

CPenney wrote:
Joeli wrote:Does anyone have video footage of Fiore's sword in one hand free fencing?


AEMMA do free fencing with a one-handed sword, based on Fiore. Check out the "armingsword" videos.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTUaDGqZEFviZE5K4V-dIhAqGd-oCo2Xa

Thanks! It does look quite a bit like Fiore's fencing. I was asking the question since I was pondering whether in freeplay using spada a una mano there would be dagger-esque grappling involved as an emergent feature of the fight.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 08 Jun 2013 05:30

admin wrote:Well.. I teach it a little differently - as I teach it, at the moment of impact the two blades form an X - a true cross as Silver would call it. Your defending sword is in something like high Tierce. Immediately after that contact I then switch to the one-handed Fenestra. This is essentially the same as what Guy seems to be doing in the second video.

So you cover against the cut with your point up and hand low? I think you are the second person I know who interprets the cover of the sword in one hand against a cut as a fendente roverso instead of a sottano roverso. Did you get that from the sword on horseback section? I do it as a sottano with the true edge, as Guy and apparently Artes Belli do, but haven't gone over the evidence in detail.

Artes Belli are very scrupulous about foot position: the poste has 135* between his feet in the Getty and PD, but Guy does it with a 45* angle. I prefer to copy the pictures when doing a "canonical" version.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby admin » 10 Jun 2013 10:27

Sean M wrote:So you cover against the cut with your point up and hand low?


Yes, though I think it is probably closer to a mezzano than a fendente in motion... though it's a 'coverta', not a 'colpo'. I'm not aiming at the person.

I do it as a sottano with the true edge, as Guy and apparently Artes Belli do


Is that what Guy does? I don't know what Guy does, but in his video above it looks to me pretty similar to what we do. Perhaps the point here is that the motion is not really a sottano or a fendente... it's more like a windscreen-wiper-like motion that is actually more like a mezzano. But it's not any of these really, as it's a cover to close a line, not a cut.

FYI, Viggiani has a whole manual based on this sort of motion.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 23 Jun 2013 06:26

I think we would have to be in the same room to understand each other here. I have only seen Guy's Sw1H interpretation once, but I remember his cover against the cut as more a rising cut with the true edge than a hanging parry or a beat from left to right. My notes on the other instructor have his parry as a riverso mezzano with the true edge. I should probably go and play with this a bit, since I have partners available for once.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 24 Jun 2013 01:20

Sean M wrote:I think we would have to be in the same room to understand each other here. I have only seen Guy's Sw1H interpretation once, but I remember his cover against the cut as more a rising cut with the true edge than a hanging parry or a beat from left to right. My notes on the other instructor have his parry as a riverso mezzano with the true edge. I should probably go and play with this a bit, since I have partners available for once.


The thing is that Fiore says nothing on *how* to make the cover in the SIOH section. In the mounted section, using the same guard (called Coda Longa) he describes the cover as not upward, but left to right, and rising a little bit, iirc. The purpose of this, he says, is that a single cover will allow you to cover right and left-hand fendente. I think that a right-hand attack can be covered with a more rising cover, but you really need to flatten it out to cover a left-hand cut. The break of point needs the windshield-wiper motion, where the hand stays at hip level, and the sword tip is up around throat-level as the cover is made.

My feeling is that by keeping the covering sword relatively flat it is easy to pull the sword back slightly once the beat is made, which stops the motion and leaves your sword and arm in the position shown in the manuscripts (i.e. finestra with the tip pointing at the attacker). Covering with more of a sottani, in my experience, makes it hard to stop to sword in the 'finestra' position - it wants to keep going up.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Joeli » 24 Jun 2013 06:00

CPenney wrote: The break of point needs the windshield-wiper motion, where the hand stays at hip level, and the sword tip is up around throat-level as the cover is made.

As it should! Otherwise wouldn't you be cutting into your horse's head?

When on foot, it's interesting to me that capoferro describes a similar universal parry with rapier, as Fiore with S.A.U.M.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 24 Jun 2013 07:07

CPenney wrote:
Sean M wrote:I think we would have to be in the same room to understand each other here. I have only seen Guy's Sw1H interpretation once, but I remember his cover against the cut as more a rising cut with the true edge than a hanging parry or a beat from left to right. My notes on the other instructor have his parry as a riverso mezzano with the true edge. I should probably go and play with this a bit, since I have partners available for once.


The thing is that Fiore says nothing on *how* to make the cover in the SIOH section. In the mounted section, using the same guard (called Coda Longa) he describes the cover as not upward, but left to right, and rising a little bit, iirc. The purpose of this, he says, is that a single cover will allow you to cover right and left-hand fendente. I think that a right-hand attack can be covered with a more rising cover, but you really need to flatten it out to cover a left-hand cut. The break of point needs the windshield-wiper motion, where the hand stays at hip level, and the sword tip is up around throat-level as the cover is made.

My feeling is that by keeping the covering sword relatively flat it is easy to pull the sword back slightly once the beat is made, which stops the motion and leaves your sword and arm in the position shown in the manuscripts (i.e. finestra with the tip pointing at the attacker). Covering with more of a sottani, in my experience, makes it hard to stop to sword in the 'finestra' position - it wants to keep going up.

Greg Mele also borrows a lot from the sword on horseback in his sword in one hand interpretation, but I'm not sure that those masters teach the same response to a cut. I haven't studied that section seriously, but don't they parry cuts in a sort of Posta Breve?

Dall'Agocchie has Fiore reversed, since he parries the mandritto or roverso to the head with a riverso sgualimbro (Fiore's fendente roverso with the true edge) in his condensed system. Manciolino seems to prefer rising falsi in his take on the simplest possible way to defend yourself with a sword (book 4, chapter 12: a lot of Italian masters make a point of showing such a system!) Fiore's last master of the sword in two hands seems to teach that the key thing is to accrescere and beat aside the attack then riposte ... I think that he has a "universal strategy" not a "universal parry."

Unfortunately, I will be traveling next week so unable to play with different interpretations.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 25 Jun 2013 01:16

Well, he certainly does end up in a different position to carry out his riposte (definitely more of a breve). It's possible, though, that the purpose of that is to position oneself in a better position to thrust a person in armour, rather than a different way of performing the defensive action. I suppose one could imagine the "windshield-wiper" motion as a defence against the cuts to go from coda longa in an arc ending up directly in breve, but to me, that doesn't obey the textual description Fiore gives.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Motley » 25 Jun 2013 19:51

...and Posta Breve is not a position we are told is good to cover in. In fact we are kinda warned against using it out of armour....
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby admin » 27 Jun 2013 10:38

Sean M wrote: Manciolino seems to prefer rising falsi in his take on the simplest possible way to defend yourself with a sword


Well let's remember that Fore also uses false-edge 'rebats' to defend, both with the sword two-handed on foot and with the one-handed sword mounted. Fiore's one-handed sword on foot section is very small - it shows one way that you can use a one-handed weapon to defend yourself, but if we take the source as a whole, including what he shows mounted and the two-handed stuff as well, then there is a pretty broad repertoire there.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby CPenney » 28 Jun 2013 12:38

admin wrote:Well let's remember that Fore also uses false-edge 'rebats' to defend ... with the one-handed sword mounted.


What evidence is there specifically of this? I ask because I recall being shown that by Bob Charron at a seminar on the sword in one hand back in 2004, but I can't recall seeing it directly described in the text. Do you see it as a variation that leads more naturally to the 'breve' looking cover?

IIRC, the rationale described was that a false-edge parry allows the tip to rise up over the head of a horse, then parry the incoming blow. I don't think I've actually drilled the cover this way, at least not for years.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby admin » 28 Jun 2013 16:28

CPenney wrote:What evidence is there specifically of this?


It is in Getty, where he explains how to defend your horse from an opponent with a lance. He starts in denti di cinghiale.
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Re: 2 vids with Fiore sword in one hand

Postby Sean M » 02 Jul 2013 18:41

Also the master of parrying any attack with the sword in two hands, and Porta di Ferro Mezzana with the sword in two hands. I suspect that some meditation on the dagger section would turn up similar mechanics.

Motley wrote:...and Posta Breve is not a position we are told is good to cover in. In fact we are kinda warned against using it out of armour....

But remember why the poste speak to the reader. Since Fiore thinks about movement in Aristelian terms, any posta can be the start and end of motion (for the later, see the third thing which Posta Frontale tells you to do against a thrust). But the poste, or First Masters, speak to the reader to explain what they can do when they are facing their opponent and in measure to strike and be struck with a step. So they only mention techniques which end in their position when they get excited and digress. Thus Posta Breve says that it is not the best choice to adopt when you are unarmoured and your opponent is coming into measure to strike.

Fiore doesn't give a detailed jargon for parries, but he sometimes describes them as cuts or poste (see the Rompere di Punta and the defense with the staff against the spear for examples), so like most people I use cut and posta names to identify parries in writing. That seems much less offensive than, for example, using the numbered parries of classical sabre fencing. It is not a bad shorthand as long as you don't expect it to give a clear name for everything.

The cover of the sword in one hand against thrusts passes through Posta Breve on the right, and we see this cover elsewhere in, for example, the Scambiar di Punta.
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