Who works with Vadi?

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Who works with Vadi?

Postby Barca » 12 Jun 2012 10:54

Just curious, what individuals or groups are actively working with Vadi? Not in the sense of 'using him as an adjunct to Fiore' but actually making Vadi a serious or even primary focus for longsword practice?

Also, does anyone know of any good videos (or articles) with Vadi interpretations? I haven't had any success finding any. Plenty of Fiore work around, ranging for impressive to ordinary, but no Vadi.

I realise Fiore tends to steal the limelight, but there is plenty to work with in Vadi, and with the forward focussed guards, narrow stances and new footwork, it has a distinctly different feel to Fiore in my limited experience. And certainly, there is more in Vadi to work with than, say, the obscure English longsword texts, and yet those have managed to attract a sizeable following.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 12 Jun 2012 11:14

I have toyed with Vadi over the years, but nothing serious. AFAIK two English-speaking people who have made a serious stab at Vadi are Greg Mele and Guy Windsor, neither of whom post here. I seem to remember that Guy put some Vadi stuff up on Facebook recently.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Phil C » 12 Jun 2012 11:29

Guy's doing a translation for publication at the moment.

Matt Noel, formerly of the DDS, did a lot of work with Vadi but he doesn't do computers and now lives in the wilds of nowhere so doesn't fence or teach at the moment.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 12 Jun 2012 11:41

Phil C wrote:Guy's doing a translation for publication at the moment.


I have to say, that must be a pretty easy job, given that there are already 2 English translations! LOL
Maybe I'll do one as well, hmmmmmm ;)
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Phil C » 12 Jun 2012 12:07

But did the others require specialist furniture?
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 12 Jun 2012 12:17

I am aware of Guy's book stand. I have one also, inside my head. :P
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Motley » 12 Jun 2012 13:57

I did ask this same question quite a long time ago but there did not seem to be that many people doing it.

I also think that just following Vadi would end up with something that looked quite different to Fiore. It was the first thing that struck me about it when I read the translation.

I like the 'feel' of Vadi, it is like he is talking directly to you, he is one of the only fencing authors I know that says something to the effect of is you are reading it and want to add something then do.

But I have not spent much time working with just want he says. I know I find some of the things he talks about just hard to understand.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Barca » 13 Jun 2012 02:11

Thanks everyone.

I knew about Guy and Greg, although I somehow had the impression they mainly do Fiore and use Vadi for some insights, rather than trying to 'do' Vadi as a primary focus. Certainly, there are some key features of Vadi's work that don't show up in Fiore to the best of my knowledge, including:

- his 'new' footwork and narrow stances with the feet close together
- his 'less charged' forward pointing stances
- increasing use of molinelli (perhaps due to the less charged stances), including the first use of the stramazzone

In particular, in my reading of Vadi, there are footwork actions that read to me like demi-lunges, Meyer's broken steps and the Bolognese cambio di piedi (change of feet), that I don't see Fiorists using. I was keen to see how people interpret and physically perform these in combination with the actions of defence and attack.

Will Guy's translation of Vadi be made available and when might it be released? Although there are already two available, another one certainly won't hurt - each translation can sometimes bring to light a nuance that illuminates the others.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Michael Chidester » 13 Jun 2012 02:18

Fiore uses a narrow stance at least once.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Barca » 13 Jun 2012 02:41

Michael Chidester wrote:Fiore uses a narrow stance at least once.


Can you elaborate Michael?

Also, the way I see most people performing Fiore doesn't really ever match the way I think Vadi describes movement and footwork. That could be a failing on my part, in terms of my understanding of Vadi and Fiore, but there it is.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 13 Jun 2012 07:53

This has inspired me to revisit Vadi. I'll share any views I have after having a re-read. I do think that changing feet, triangle steps and lunges are implicit in Fiore though.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Reinier » 13 Jun 2012 09:41

I have often mused about getting back to studying longsword for myself. If/when that happens, I think I will turn to Vadi. His work appeals to me, though I do not know why exactly.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Joeli » 13 Jun 2012 10:18

Barca wrote:Thanks everyone.

I knew about Guy and Greg, although I somehow had the impression they mainly do Fiore and use Vadi for some insights, rather than trying to 'do' Vadi as a primary focus.

This is the picture I've gotten, too. In seven years, I have never seen a Vadi class by Guy, or heard about him holding them somewhere. I hope he has not made claims about teaching it, though it would be nice if he started doing classes on the subject. The only Vadi piece there used to be in his school was a recommendation that his senior students read the introduction in Vadi's book. But by then, they are also studying I.33, Capoferro or D. Angelo for insights to Fiore in addition to some much more esoteric subjects. It would be nice to see someone doing Vadi, though. The book looks like the style has a nice feel to it.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 13 Jun 2012 11:21

My reservation about Vadi is that bits of his text and some of his images are clearly either copied from Fiore or from a parallel tradition and years ago when I was more familiar with the source I gained the impression that what he spoke about in the long prologue text at the beginning didn't necessarily marry well with what was shown in the images, almost as if the two things had been forced to dwell in the same manuscript by circumstance. But as I say, it has been many years since I was well versed in that source.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Motley » 13 Jun 2012 13:10

Joeli wrote:
Barca wrote:Thanks everyone.

I knew about Guy and Greg, although I somehow had the impression they mainly do Fiore and use Vadi for some insights, rather than trying to 'do' Vadi as a primary focus.

This is the picture I've gotten, too. In seven years, I have never seen a Vadi class by Guy, or heard about him holding them somewhere. I hope he has not made claims about teaching it, though it would be nice if he started doing classes on the subject. The only Vadi piece there used to be in his school was a recommendation that his senior students read the introduction in Vadi's book. But by then, they are also studying I.33, Capoferro or D. Angelo for insights to Fiore in addition to some much more esoteric subjects. It would be nice to see someone doing Vadi, though. The book looks like the style has a nice feel to it.



Guy has had a indiegogo, like kickstarter, type thing (http://www.indiegogo.com/veni-VADI-vici) for a new translation and interpretation project he is doing. So I think that any work he is doing on it is 'new'.

As I understand it once it is done the translation will be freely available.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Motley » 13 Jun 2012 13:13

admin wrote:My reservation about Vadi is that bits of his text and some of his images are clearly either copied from Fiore or from a parallel tradition and years ago when I was more familiar with the source I gained the impression that what he spoke about in the long prologue text at the beginning didn't necessarily marry well with what was shown in the images, almost as if the two things had been forced to dwell in the same manuscript by circumstance. But as I say, it has been many years since I was well versed in that source.


I too got this impression bit, I really like reading the introduction chapters, and then when you get to the plates bit seems a bit random.

Greg Mele made a comment on HA recently that the original book is really quite small and on lower quality parchment. It really is the little work he claims it to be.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Motley » 13 Jun 2012 13:29

This is what I wrote about my first impressions of Vadi in a now defunct blog back in 08 I had probably being doing HEMA about a year at this point.

Me wrote:So Vadi arrived the other day. Delivered safely to my door by the Canadian postal service, which in its own way is a minor miracle.

I have only just started to read what he has to say on the subject of swordsmanship. I am a very short way in to the book and I have browsed the pictures somewhat and very pretty they are too.

Since I first began to look into HEMA whenever I have read about Italian Longsword I have had the impression that Vadi was basically in the same tradition as Fiore and showed basically the same material, just from a slightly later view point. I cannot help but think that if you just used Vadi as a reference you would come up with something pretty different to what you would come up with by reading just Fiore.

The leads me to wonder was it basically the same thing or not? Considering that Vadi seemed to suggest that his art was new.
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Motley » 13 Jun 2012 13:30

admin wrote:This has inspired me to revisit Vadi. I'll share any views I have after having a re-read. I do think that changing feet, triangle steps and lunges are implicit in Fiore though.


Maybe we should all go off and have a re-read of Vadi then have a thread about it?
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby admin » 13 Jun 2012 13:42

Yep, I have just re-located my copy of Marco Rubboli's (unpublished) translation thanks to Fabrice!
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Re: Who works with Vadi?

Postby Michael Chidester » 13 Jun 2012 16:50

admin wrote:My reservation about Vadi is that bits of his text and some of his images are clearly either copied from Fiore or from a parallel tradition and years ago when I was more familiar with the source I gained the impression that what he spoke about in the long prologue text at the beginning didn't necessarily marry well with what was shown in the images, almost as if the two things had been forced to dwell in the same manuscript by circumstance. But as I say, it has been many years since I was well versed in that source.

Yes, there's a reason I split the introduction off from the illustrated bit in my treatment on the wiki.
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