What do you think this means?

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby Michael Chidester » 11 Jun 2012 22:32

I'm with Matt on that one. Coverta is a specific category of actions, not a static position.

Thearos wrote:In my view, the text needs a bit of punctuating, and perhaps emending. Like so--

Spada son, contro ogni arma mortale. Né lanza né azza né daga contra mi vale. Longa o curta me posso fare e me strengo e vegno allo zogho stretto, e vegno allo ?tor d’ spada? e allo abrazare. Mia arte si è : rotture e ligadure so ben fare de coverta, e ferire sempre in quei voglio finire.


I am SWORD, deadly against all weapon. Neither spear nor axe nor dagger is worth anything against me. I can make myself long or short, and I draw myself in and I come to close play, and I come to ??? and to wrestling. Thus is my art: I can make breaks and binds out of cover, and always strike those with whom I sish to make an end.


Notes:
some obvious punctuations and changes to translation (deadly rather than "mortal", etc).
Si è = cosi è, is this.
So ben fare must go with the rotture (excellent change by Piermarco). De coverta instead of de coverte, "out of cover", because "so ben fare" already has an object (rotture e ligadure).
"I know how to strike" is clear-- "Sempre in quelle" is sort of meaningless, especially since "coverte" / "coverta" cannot be the object of "so ben fare", and hence there is no antecedent for "quelle". So I interpret the phrase I something like "in quei" = "those in who". "questi in cui".

"Tor" in "tor d'spada" is an abbreviation for togliere, to take or remove. It refers to disarming.
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby Piermarco » 11 Jun 2012 22:46

Michael Chidester wrote:I'm with Matt on that one. Coverta is a specific category of actions, not a static position.



Sounds reasonable.

Michael Chidester wrote:"Tor" in "tor d'spada" is an abbreviation for togliere, to take or remove. It refers to disarming.


Agreed, "torre" (and hence "tor" in the dialect of Fiore) is a literary/archaic contraction of "togliere".
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby Thearos » 12 Jun 2012 00:11

OK, let me try again:

Spada son, contro ogni arma mortale. Né lanza né azza né daga contra mi vale. Longa o curta me posso fare e me strengo e vegno allo zogho stretto, e vegno allo tor d’ spada e allo abrazare. Mia arte si è : rotture e ligadure. So ben fare de coverte, e ferire. Sempre in quelle voglio finire.


I am SWORD, deadly against all weapons. Neither spear nor axe nor dagger is worth anything against me. I can make myself long or short, and I draw myself in and I come to close play, and I come to grabbing of sword and to grappling. Thus is my art: breaks and binds. I know well how to do covers, and how to strike. Always in those covers I aim to end.
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby Barca » 12 Jun 2012 03:45

I can't add much to the fascinating and academic discussion here.

But I did want to point out, if it hasn't been noted already, that 'rota' is the term Vadi uses for what Fiore calls 'sottani' or rising blows of the sword. Vadi uses false edged 'rota' to 'break' and displace attacks with the rising sword, so that may lend some credence to the idea of rota=break. Or not - if this is an irrelevant diversion, feel free to ignore. :wink:
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby admin » 12 Jun 2012 10:30

Ah, but because rota in this part of Fiore means 'break', does not mean that is what Vadi means. It is perfectly likely that 'rota' in Vadi means to wheel/spin/turn. If I remember correctly, Vadi says it is the horizontal cuts that deflect the diagonal cuts (as in a rebatter).
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby Barca » 12 Jun 2012 10:42

admin wrote:Ah, but because rota in this part of Fiore means 'break', does not mean that is what Vadi means. It is perfectly likely that 'rota' in Vadi means to wheel/spin/turn. If I remember correctly, Vadi says it is the horizontal cuts that deflect the diagonal cuts (as in a rebatter).


I'm not sure. Vadi's rota are with the false edge, so (for example) cutting down with fendente and then cutting back up with rota (something he advises) doesn't really involve a spin or turn as such, it is just a reversal of direction. But I think I'm being too narrow here, rota in the sense of wheeling or turning could also simply refer to the change of direction itself.
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Re: What do you think this means?

Postby admin » 12 Jun 2012 10:48

Barca wrote:I'm not sure. Vadi's rota are with the false edge


If I remember correctly they are with the false edge from the left and the true edge from the right. Which is very interesting because Fiore does not specify edges for sottani or fendenti.

cutting down with fendente and then cutting back up with rota (something he advises) doesn't really involve a spin or turn as such, it is just a reversal of direction. But I think I'm being too narrow here, rota in the sense of wheeling or turning could also simply refer to the change of direction itself.


Yes, I'm not sure that there needs to be any great logic to what he decides to call the cuts (I can not think of any reason why some of his guards are named the ways they are) - also, you can debouble cuts of course - if you do two upwards cuts, either from the same side or from each side, then it will look very much like a wheel (or moulinette).
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