Bicorno

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby John H » 25 Sep 2012 18:17

Getting to our ‘aggressive’ interpretation, this actually has an explanation. If I move the anchoring position from my center line to either the right or left shoulder the left hand will change.

On the right line it will look more like:
Image

On the left line it will look closer to:
Image

basically I need to rotate my left hand in that transition so it isn't bent all funky.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Motley » 25 Sep 2012 18:33

Michael Chidester wrote:I'm not certain about that. The Getty, Morgan, and Florius can all be interpreted as showing precisely the same hand position. The Novati is the odd man out, but whether that's intentional or an error on the part of the artist who produced the manuscript or the artist who copied it for Novati is impossible to know. (Me, I suspect that if and when the Pisani-Dossi Ms. is scanned again, we'll find that the left hand is smudged or faded, leading Novati's artist to interpolate a hand position on their own. But I may be wrong, and it's not even certain that Novati recopied the ms. in the first place.)


I was trying to figure out the other day but my google fu was letting me down and I didn't have much time. Do we know what the technology to produce a facsimilie would have been when the PD was copied by Novati?
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Re: Bicorno

Postby CaptainAbrecan » 25 Sep 2012 19:23

John H wrote:Getting to our ‘aggressive’ interpretation, this actually has an explanation. If I move the anchoring position from my center line to either the right or left shoulder the left hand will change.

On the right line it will look more like:
On the left line it will look closer to:

basically I need to rotate my left hand in that transition so it isn't bent all funky.


I get it now, thanks. Couldn't really tell the depth of the sword in relation to the torso width from the art, I didn't even think of it :oops:
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Re: Bicorno

Postby CPenney » 30 Sep 2012 23:23

Michael Chidester wrote:I'm not certain about that. The Getty, Morgan, and Florius can all be interpreted as showing precisely the same hand position. The Novati is the odd man out, but whether that's intentional or an error on the part of the artist who produced the manuscript or the artist who copied it for Novati is impossible to know. (Me, I suspect that if and when the Pisani-Dossi Ms. is scanned again, we'll find that the left hand is smudged or faded, leading Novati's artist to interpolate a hand position on their own. But I may be wrong, and it's not even certain that Novati recopied the ms. in the first place.)


Interesting point. I think that It's clear that reversing the hand grip seems to be an important part of the guard (even if we can't discount the alternate 'conventional' grip).

I also do not use bicorno to any great degree. I've seen Guy WIndsor explain his interpretation of bicorno, and thought it interesting, though I cannot say that I've actually worked at it enough to be able to integrate it into my repertoire. Regarding the notion that the position cannot be a thrusting position, as a thrust requires a greater extension, I would point out the exchange of point. In that play, the Scholar with his hands kept low and his point high is definitely sacrificing reach compared to his opponent (who would seem to be in posta longa). He can do this as he is thrusting from a crossed swords position, after defending against the attackers thrust. I wonder if tactically, bicorno would similarly be used as a thrusting position where one has already closed distance. From that position, simply stepping forward without straightening the arms as far as they could go might be sufficient.

Just a quick thought on the position of the hands (this is just something that popped into my head today, so please be gentile!) - I wonder if the grip of the sword is raised up to chin-height in order to better represent the hand position. Perhaps, if we assume the reversed hand position is key to the guard, and if the hands were meant to be held low (similar to breve) the distinction wouldn't be apparent in the illustration. Instead, I wonder if the artist raised the hands for illustrative purposes, similar to how the second remedy master of dagger is drawn very vertically (which I think is just to illustrate how one crosses the forearms). Thoughts?
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Isto » 01 Oct 2012 21:00

Here is some thoughts...

Perhaps it's safe to assume that the hand position in the Pisani-Dossi Ms. is wrong. In the other manuscripts it's drawn right.

The text clearly states the line guards are mezza Porta di Ferro, Posta Longa and Posta Breve. Bicorno is not listed so the blade is not on the centerline. In the Getty it's written that the point stays on the centerline but that's the point and the point only.

In the Getty Ms. the left forearm is pretty much sideways. In the other manuscripts the left forearm points upward. There is one other notable difference too! In the Getty Ms. the left foot is in front and in the others the right foot is in front.

As the name of the guard suggests this guard has two horns. When your left forearm is sideways like in the Getty Ms. you have the right horn. When your left forearm points upward like in the other manuscripts you have the left horn. You can move your sword's handle from the side to side amazingly fast. It's so fast that you basically have "two horns". You can also move your feet according to your hands if you like.

In the Getty Ms. it reads it can do all the stuff the Posta Longa can. Sure it can! It can deceive the opponent by it's mighty two horns. It's easy to make a thrust from Bicorno that ends in Posta Longa and for example from the "right horn" it's easy to exchange thrusts exactly like Fiore teaches.
Last edited by Isto on 02 Oct 2012 18:27, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Michael Chidester » 01 Oct 2012 21:15

Isto wrote:As the name of the guard suggests this guard has two horns. When your left hand is sideways like in the Getty Ms. you have the right horn. When your left hand points upward like in the other manuscripts you have the left horn. You can move your sword's handle from the side to side amazingly fast. It's so fast that you basically have "two horns". You can also move your feet according to your hands if you like.

When I stand as in the Getty, my weapon and both hands are on my left side. Also, which "other manuscripts" are you talking about? The Getty, Morgan, and Paris all have the same hand position.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Isto » 01 Oct 2012 21:26

Michael Chidester wrote:When I stand as in the Getty, my weapon and both hands are on my left side. Also, which "other manuscripts" are you talking about? The Getty, Morgan, and Paris all have the same hand position.


In that paragraph by saying hand I meant the part of the limb under the elbow. Sorry for the bad English :)

Instead of a word hand I should have used a word forearm. I edited my text.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Isto » 01 Oct 2012 22:17

Here is a simple drawing to demonstrate what I meant.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Michael Chidester » 01 Oct 2012 22:39

I would classify the one on the right as Finestra.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Isto » 01 Oct 2012 23:01

Michael Chidester wrote:I would classify the one on the right as Finestra.


It's Bicorno as it is drawn in the Morgan and Paris. I think it should be clear without additional drawings. The hands are on the front of the head and little lower than in Finestra. The sword is pointing slightly upward and position of the left hand is different than it should be in Finestra (although it's not clearly visible in the drawing).
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Jonathan Waller » 10 Oct 2012 22:46

My interpretation from looking at the illustrations is that they show the sword held more centrally. Without an illustration of the position viewed from the front, I don't think we can say for sure that is being held to left/right, with any more certainty....
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Isto » 10 Oct 2012 23:00

Jonathan Waller wrote:My interpretation from looking at the illustrations is that they show the sword held more centrally. Without an illustration of the position viewed from the front, I don't think we can say for sure that is being held to left/right, with any more certainty....


It's not listed with mezza Porta di Ferro, Posta Longa and Posta Breve. It's clear that those three are on the line and it's obvious that tutta Porta di Ferro, Posta di Donna, Finestra, Dente di Cinghiaro, Posta di Coda Lunga and Posta Frontale aren't. I don't think that Bicorno is an exception. Why we can't just believe what is written?
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Jonathan Waller » 10 Oct 2012 23:29

Because we interpret what we read and what we see and one persons reading of the words is not always someone else's! and another's way of seeing the picture is not another's :D
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Re: Bicorno

Postby CPenney » 11 Oct 2012 03:45

Isto wrote:It's not listed with mezza Porta di Ferro, Posta Longa and Posta Breve. It's clear that those three are on the line and it's obvious that tutta Porta di Ferro, Posta di Donna, Finestra, Dente di Cinghiaro, Posta di Coda Lunga and Posta Frontale aren't. I don't think that Bicorno is an exception. Why we can't just believe what is written?


Well, what is written in the description of bicorno is:
Questa è posta di bicorno che stà cossì serada che sempre sta cum la punta per mezo de la strada.

This is the Posta di Bicorno, which stays closed so that the point remains always on the centreline. (trans. Tom Leoni)


Besides, dente zenchiaro mezana, a posta unique to the Getty, stands in the middle, and is also a thrusting position. Either Fiore is contradicting himself here, or he is not stating that breve, longa and mezza porta de fero are the only guards that stand in the middle.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Michael Chidester » 11 Oct 2012 03:53

The point remains in the middle while the hands are held to the side of the body.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby steve hick » 11 Oct 2012 12:50

Michael Chidester wrote:The point remains in the middle while the hands are held to the side of the body.


Sorry, this is likely been gone over well before, but why is it "BI-cornu"?

I'd like to add I have not studied Fiore as a martial art nor spent a lot of time on him since the '90s - hunting the Ludwig version (aka Getty). It's just it all of a sudden struck me.

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Re: Bicorno

Postby admin » 11 Oct 2012 13:47

I think the implication above it that whilst the point remains in the middle, the hands can be inclined to the left or the right. Kind of like tierce and quarte in foil.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Motley » 11 Oct 2012 13:49

steve hick wrote:
Michael Chidester wrote:The point remains in the middle while the hands are held to the side of the body.


Sorry, this is likely been gone over well before, but why is it "BI-cornu"?

I'd like to add I have not studied Fiore as a martial art nor spent a lot of time on him since the '90s - hunting the Ludwig version (aka Getty). It's just it all of a sudden struck me.

Steve


The current theory, as far as I am aware, is that the name, two horns, refers to a small anvil used in armouring that has two horns.

Like this:
Image

There was a conversation a couple of years ago on SFI about it.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby Michael Chidester » 11 Oct 2012 14:45

Yes, my assumption is that it's a reference to the two-horned anvil.
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Re: Bicorno

Postby John H » 11 Oct 2012 17:22

admin wrote:I think the implication above it that whilst the point remains in the middle, the hands can be inclined to the left or the right. Kind of like tierce and quarte in foil.


Precisely, without this you thrust in a middle guard and have no defense while you thrust.

While the reasoning for calling it two horns may not be an educated one from the interpretation. You can form this on the left and right, two side, and the guard looks like a horn…kinda. Thus two horns.
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