Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

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Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Isto » 03 Jan 2012 15:40

Hi all,

Last play of the fifth master of the dagger has been disturbing me for a while. Part where Fiore tells you to keep your arm inclined is clear, but what after that?

Tom Leoni's translation says: "I will then perform the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger." What is the master of close play of the dagger? As far as I know this is the only place where such master is mentioned.
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Bulot » 03 Jan 2012 16:46

I think you're referring to the 13th play, from the Getty version.

"A ço che questo scolaro non mi possa lo brazzo dislogare, io lo tegno curto e linzinado. E si io li tignisse più lincinado saria anchora meglio perchè i' faço lo contrario del Re e magistro del zogho stretto dela daga."
(from the Wiktenauer Getty transcription by Sala d'Armes Achilles Marozzo).

The Exiles translation is the following :

"And if I hold him closer I shall also do it better, because I am the contrary of the King and Master of the close play of daggers".


Fifth master of dagger shows multiple ways to deal with an armed opponent grabbing you by the collar. The 13th play is the counter to this master, and indicates that in order to avoid the general nastiness of the aforementioned plays, it is safer to keep your arm inclined and to be close to your opponent.

edit : and welcome to the forum.
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Isto » 03 Jan 2012 18:02

Bulot wrote:I think you're referring to the 13th play, from the Getty version.

Yes.

Bulot wrote:
"A ço che questo scolaro non mi possa lo brazzo dislogare, io lo tegno curto e linzinado. E si io li tignisse più lincinado saria anchora meglio perchè i' faço lo contrario del Re e magistro del zogho stretto dela daga."
(from the Wiktenauer Getty transcription by Sala d'Armes Achilles Marozzo).

The Exiles translation is the following :

"And if I hold him closer I shall also do it better, because I am the contrary of the King and Master of the close play of daggers".


Fifth master of dagger shows multiple ways to deal with an armed opponent grabbing you by the collar. The 13th play is the counter to this master, and indicates that in order to avoid the general nastiness of the aforementioned plays, it is safer to keep your arm inclined and to be close to your opponent.


I generally understand the teachings of the 5th master and the part of the counter where you are told to keep your hand inclined. However according to my understanding the text says you can do something more addition to that.

The whole paragraph from Tom Leoni's translation:
"I am keeping my arm withdrawn and inclined to prevent this student from dislocating it. If I were to incline it even more, it would be better; I will then perform the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger."

I trust Tom Leoni's translation more than the Exiles one, but of course it's not perfect either.

Bulot wrote:edit : and welcome to the forum.

Thanks :) !
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Bulot » 03 Jan 2012 20:50

I trust Tom Leoni's translation more than the Exiles one, but of course it's not perfect either.


I was'nt impying the Exile's translation is better, but as I'm not myself fluent in XVth century Italian, it's always good to look at both. The way I would translate it would be something along the line of :

"And if I incline it even more, it is better, because I do the contrary of the king and master of the narrow play of dagger."

I don't think there is more to this specific play than
"If you have to grab someone by the collar, keep close to him, bend your arm, incline it, or there is a risk you end up with a broken elbow, as I've shown before"
Btw, it appears only in the Getty, Fiore did'nt bother mention it in the other manuscripts. (Actually he advocates against any kind of collar-grabbing in the first play).
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Isto » 07 Jan 2012 18:10

Looks like you are right. Little disappointing actually. So there is a mistake in the Leoni's translation :?
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Alex Putnam-Spreier » 07 Jan 2012 21:43

Isto wrote:So there is a mistake in the Leoni's translation :?


What mistake? The way I read his translation, and the way it was typed out above, are clearly two separate statements.
"If I were to incline it even more, it would be better."

"I will then perform the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger."

Simple as that. Could it have been phrased differently, sure. But then again so could any paragraph from any translation I've ever read. That's half the fun of translating :D
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Isto » 07 Jan 2012 23:17

Alex Putnam-Spreier wrote:
Isto wrote:So there is a mistake in the Leoni's translation :?


What mistake? The way I read his translation, and the way it was typed out above, are clearly two separate statements.
"If I were to incline it even more, it would be better."

"I will then perform the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger."

Simple as that. Could it have been phrased differently, sure. But then again so could any paragraph from any translation I've ever read. That's half the fun of translating :D


Umm... So keeping your arm inclined IS the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger. I just understood the text badly. Should the 5th master of the dagger then be called the Master of close play of the dagger :) ?
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Alex Putnam-Spreier » 08 Jan 2012 00:44

Isto wrote:Umm... So keeping your arm inclined IS the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger. I just understood the text badly. Should the 5th master of the dagger then be called the Master of close play of the dagger :) ?


Why waste digital ink?

Bulot wrote:I don't think there is more to this specific play than
"If you have to grab someone by the collar, keep close to him, bend your arm, incline it, or there is a risk you end up with a broken elbow, as I've shown before"
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Bulot » 08 Jan 2012 17:03

What mistake? The way I read his translation, and the way it was typed out above, are clearly two separate statements.
"If I were to incline it even more, it would be better."

"I will then perform the counter of the King and Master of close play of the dagger."


That's how I understand it as well. The tricky part is to use the word "then" to translate "perchè".

Should the 5th master of the dagger then be called the Master of close play of the dagger ?


All the masters, wearing crowns, are Kings and Masters of the narrow play of dagger, not only the 5th (Though, in this particular sentence, he's obviously the one pointed out).
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Mark Lancaster » 28 Jun 2012 23:34

Isto wrote:I trust Tom Leoni's translation more than the Exiles one, but of course it's not perfect either.

Really - so you also are fooled into thinking that a cover is a parry? Of course you can martial justify that within Fiore???
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby CPenney » 26 Aug 2012 16:57

Apologies for resurrecting an older thread, but I think the fact that the counter appears only in the Getty MS is interesting. The contrary play to me would protect the arm from an attack to the elbow (particularly if the attacker had a straight arm). The way I read it, it is the counter to the Master, but perhaps not for any of the Scholars. The Getty has a few plays (particularly in the dagger) that are interesting, but are essentially derivative of material that is already in the other manuscripts (for e.g. the pui fortezza and crossed-arms cover below).

As far as the term "The King and Master of the close play of the dagger", I think it is simply illustrative - Fiore says that the dagger plays close, so I think that this play in question is not referring to any specific unidentified master (or it's simply a way of referring to the 5th Master).
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Bulot » 28 Aug 2012 17:06

Apologies for resurrecting an older thread, but I think the fact that the counter appears only in the Getty MS is interesting. The contrary play to me would protect the arm from an attack to the elbow (particularly if the attacker had a straight arm). The way I read it, it is the counter to the Master, but perhaps not for any of the Scholars. The Getty has a few plays (particularly in the dagger) that are interesting, but are essentially derivative of material that is already in the other manuscripts (for e.g. the pui fortezza and crossed-arms cover below).


I'm sorry, but I do'nt think I understand your point.
Here's my take on things :
-Grabbing the companion's collar is dangerous.
-If the companion grabs your collar, the 5th Master of dagger shows you how to deal with it.
-The 13th play of the 5th master in the Getty is the counter to the 5th master : to avoid having your arm broken by the 5th master and his scholars, keep your elbow bent and the opponent close.
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby CPenney » 28 Aug 2012 22:29

Bulot wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do'nt think I understand your point.
Here's my take on things :
-Grabbing the companion's collar is dangerous.
-If the companion grabs your collar, the 5th Master of dagger shows you how to deal with it.
-The 13th play of the 5th master in the Getty is the counter to the 5th master : to avoid having your arm broken by the 5th master and his scholars, keep your elbow bent and the opponent close.


Basically, the contrary defends one thing - an attack on the elbow. Problem is, many of the 5th Remedy Master plays do not involve attacking the elbow (including attacks on the wrist, key locks and throws).
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Re: Counter-remedy master of the fifth master of the dagger

Postby Bulot » 29 Aug 2012 16:01

Thanks for spelling it out for me.
The counter to the elbow plays is obvious, but keeping close to the opponent, with a bent arm makes it really difficult for the companion to do any of the 5th Master plays :

-You can't strike from above, or below on his wrists
-You can't enter with your elbow in order to do the throw.
-You can't grab the legs
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