Porta di Ferro and Kamae arite Kamae

[OdinoSenzaOcchi]

In most of the Eastern martial arts exists the Kamae arite Kamae (japanese for "stance without stance"), often considered the best guard of all and inevitable end of one's study. If you choose a particular stance, there is only a particular set of actions that you can take from that position, which means that countermeasures can be taken by the enemy. Moreover, a warrior should always be ready for a fight, which means that your natural stance should become your fighting stance and vice versa. Kamae arite Kamae is the stance which I always used and I think that the concept and the result are very similar to the Porta di Ferro stance from Fiore. What do you think?

[admin]

Porta di Ferro mezzana or tutta?

[OdinoSenzaOcchi]

Porta di Ferro mezzana or tutta?

Both of them

[admin]

I think the low guards are great, but more for defence than offence.

[Andrew Shultz]

The concept of guard without guard appears in sources that include a name for the position corresponding to porta di ferro, they are not the same thing.

I think you're confusing a concept with a specific. Guard without guard means you can be in a low position, you can be in a high position, the important thing is that you are just being in the right position rather than holding a guard.

Musashi in book of five rings is one example. He first lays out the five guard positions, and then a little while on has a section on guard without guard which I recommend you read rather than be content with the lame summary above. In English the best translation I have is "The Complete Book of Five Rings" translated by Tokitsu.

[Monster Zero]

Stance without stance refers to mental alertness combined with standing in a position that does not tip off what you are going to do.

But primarily the mental alertness is king.

[OdinoSenzaOcchi]

The concept of guard without guard appears in sources that include a name for the position corresponding to porta di ferro, they are not the same thing.

I think you're confusing a concept with a specific. Guard without guard means you can be in a low position, you can be in a high position, the important thing is that you are just being in the right position rather than holding a guard.

Musashi in book of five rings is one example. He first lays out the five guard positions, and then a little while on has a section on guard without guard which I recommend you read rather than be content with the lame summary above. In English the best translation I have is "The Complete Book of Five Rings" translated by Tokitsu.

I read "The Book of Five Rings" regularly For me, guard without guard means that, since a high guard will probably have to switch to a low guard and vice versa during a fight, it's useless to take a particular guard. Moreover, as Monster Zero wrote, guard without guard it's a stance that does not reveal your intentions. So, as Musashi wrote, after a long study of the Heiho, you come to understand that forgetting about stances leaves more room in your mind for attacking. For me, Porta di Ferro, especially in the unarmed part, resemble too much this concept to be a coincidence.
Obviously, since it's an abstract concept, there are many possible point of view on the matter

[Joeli]

What troubles me with the business of no-stance is that you can pull it off really well in smaller weapons, but does the concept loan itself well for longer weapons, especially when looking at concepts like setting up invitations by opening a line for the opponent to attack.

But what the mentality does do, is it puts yourself in a comfortable place (mind and body alike), and while keeping a hold of your own comfortable place while fencing, you tend to force your opponent out of his (methods are irrelevant, but often choosing your footwork and technique so that your partner gets frustrated, hesitant or submissive). That's all very heady stuff.

I've read Döbringer as mentioning the same kind of mentality when he lists virtues amongst the big list of name dropping. Something like: knowledge of the art, courage, carefulness; intelligence, measure, secrecy; wisdom, foresight, readiness. Emphasis and punctuation are mine, so are any translation errors. They make more sense and are easier to remember when you group those in threes. The last three set up an idea similar to what I perceive the no-stance is trying to achieve. The first three is about tactical choices for the techniques, and the middle three is about trickery.

[Andrew Shultz]

It applies itself fine.

It doesn't mean "put yourself in a lame position that isn't good for anything". Reading Musashi again, you can easily be in a guard while in guard without guard. You just aren't fixing on the guard you're in. That's a very common theme in Japanese sources and comes from zen. The best analogue without having the zen background is "you're in the zone" though I think that's an inadequate description.

[Joeli]

I'd quantify the zazen business as using more of the right side of your brain as an explanation. But I have no clear idea of how zen mediatation is realated to mushin (a form of empty-headed fencing in japan?), but I suspect it's about the same things - one sees with the whole body and acts as a conscious thought forms, not after the thought or because of the thought. This is close to the way a national champ level sport fencer also explained her approach in competitions to me yesterday. Strange, even up to the point of her using just sixte as guard, because using any particular guards is not considered strictly necessary by her.

Anyways, here's an explanation of the right side of the brain, by a braing scientist who had a stroke herself. I promise, it's not completely besides the subject of the thread. http://www.positscience.com/blog/2010/0 ... f-insight/

[Andrew Shultz]

I'm afraid if you miss the connection between zen meditation and guard without guard you're missing a big chunk of background. Most of the written stuff that people in the west actually read - Five Rings, Life Giving Sword - are heavily influenced by zen and you really have to read about that to understand where they're going when they go off into guard without guard talk. Even saying "do it as the thought forms" while getting close to it would be scoffed at by wrinkly old zen guys because there's already a separation between you, the action, and the thought.

Guard without guard also includes from zen the idea of not being attached to anything - in this case, do not be attached to any guard position or the notion of guarding, just put the sword where it should be to cut the other guy (to paraphrase Musashi brutally). To bring it back to personal experience I find if I go into an exchange with a plan - with an attachment to how I think things should go - I often execute the plan whether it is the right plan or not - two people doing this one of the big sources of double hits.

[Phil C]

The best analogue without having the zen background is "you're in the zone" though I think that's an inadequate description.

Maslow's "Peak Experience" is the European equivalent of Musashi's "Mushin"-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

[Andrew Shultz]

That description of peak experience at least sounds like it'll get you killed as you are blissing out.

The state of mind zen aspires to is often described as "ordinary mind". There are various divisions of zen that actually distrust the sort of enlightenment experience that more matches peak experience, at least as described there. I've got a decent amount of background on zen but this is the first I'd heard of peak experience other than just as a phrase.

That's my reading of the zen/mushin connection anyway, that's it more about the state of being as you are than the state of enlightenment. You're not "at one with the universe", you're having a sword fight. But you aren't having any other sword fight than the one you are actually having, which is a lot tougher to do that it sounds.