small query: Fiore wrestler??

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small query: Fiore wrestler??

Postby HuubB » 24 Oct 2009 19:13

I have a small query about Fiore. A guy I talked with who was interested in Fiore said to me that Fiore was mainly a wrestler who like to beat the blade aside and step in to wrestle.

This is just from hearsay that I have it and since the German Liechtenauer-stream is my main area I would like to ask here if the above about Fiore is true?

If it comes to the Italian school I am quite blind.

Was Fiore mainly a wrestler who also excelled at swordsmanship? Or is the info I got wrong?

I am just asking out of interest and wanting to have correct info.

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Postby admin » 24 Oct 2009 19:57

Fiore's largest section is the dagger, second largest is the longsword. The wrestling section is rather small, though of course the dagger section adds a lot to it. The core of Fiore's longsword is obtaining a crossing of blades and then either thrusting, cutting or pommelling. It is true that Fiore shows a lot of blade grabs, entrapments, disarms and arm grabs and locks. But I'm not sure that qualifies as wrestling - grab and stab does seem to be a popular theme in the longsword section, but I'm not sure that grab and stab is the same as wrestling. Of course all Fiore's sections contain common themes - you could just as easily say that Fiore's wrestling is based on the dagger or longsword... In the end, it's all part of the same system.
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Postby Brewerkel » 24 Oct 2009 22:35

Or for a less circuitous answer.... No. Fiore was not all about wrestling. Being able to wrestle well, with or without weapons, is a foundational skill. Fiore mentions striking straight away in the wrestling prologue and then goes on to deal with all the other things to do with empty hands. Likewise he describes the attacks with dagger and then sword at the start of each section. Then how to deal with them and other likely situations related to the weapon.

So no, Bertie. Your friend is misinformed. Has he been listening to Hugh Knight or something? :roll:
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Postby HuubB » 25 Oct 2009 13:25

Brewerkel wrote:Or for a less circuitous answer.... No. Fiore was not all about wrestling. Being able to wrestle well, with or without weapons, is a foundational skill. Fiore mentions striking straight away in the wrestling prologue and then goes on to deal with all the other things to do with empty hands. Likewise he describes the attacks with dagger and then sword at the start of each section. Then how to deal with them and other likely situations related to the weapon.

So no, Bertie. Your friend is misinformed. Has he been listening to Hugh Knight or something? :roll:


Hi guys, Bertie here ;),

Thanks Matt and Brewerkel for your clear answers, I really appreciate it.
It is always good to have this forum and the people on it as a reference and a knowledge base.

I am not sure from where this guy had his info, but his statement surprised even a guy like me who does not know much about Fiore but knows his way around into the Liechtenauer style.
So I figured the Fiore experts might be even more surprised.

I have the Fiore manuscripts here at home and I took a look into them and I must say that grabbing the blade and then stabbing is indeed frequently seen there. Like Matt already stated.

The funny thing about Fiore is that he seems to be a bit..how shall I say this...a bit dandy, like a rooster, showing his feathers :)

His texts usually begin with:..."so, you want to strike me"....
and then continues in a fashion of (paraphrased by me):
..."well, I will do (...counter...) and you will soon learn to eat the mud because I will humiliate you on the ground"...

It doesn't go exactly like that, but it is quite a good reading. :)

And the wrestling pieces that Fiore has look quite solid and compact to me, basically his whole system looks crisp and clean. That is a good thing about Fiore I think, but I don't have enough knowledge of his system yet to form a good opinion.

There is so much information in the German manuscripts that I will still have a lot to train and study anyway. We now have put our instructors training up to three hours per weekly session. So we are getting somewhere.

I have the Pissani Dossi manuscript and another one (forgot the name).

Cheers,
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Postby Brewerkel » 25 Oct 2009 18:22

HuubB wrote:
Hi guys, Bertie here ;),


Oh :oops: sorry about that I had just finished watching a Jeeves and Wooster rerun.


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Postby HuubB » 25 Oct 2009 21:04

Brewerkel wrote:
HuubB wrote:
Hi guys, Bertie here ;),


Oh :oops: sorry about that I had just finished watching a Jeeves and Wooster rerun.


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ooh come on, I can take a joke. And I like the Jeeves small novels.

I once even took a swordblow in the groin without protection, Esther, one of my assistant was the evil perpetrator.

After that, nothing really hurts, not even a joke with Bertie Wooster :)

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Postby The Guardsman » 27 Oct 2009 11:03

I always saw the text explaining the techniques(and still do), not as over confident/arrogant narrative, but the actual master of the technique explaining from its point of perspective in relation to that technique.

A more modern example(using boxing) would be.

The student that is before me has dropped his guard on the left side of his head while throwing a right hand punch. By stepping with my right foot around his left I turn my body and plant my right fist into his chin, and by doing this will make your whole body without strength or worse.

All I am saying here is volta if your opponant has a weak guard. But by telling you what to expect from both parties it makes more sense.

Basically he is telling you not only how to do the technique, but also quite helpfully for us, what to expect from doing this from start to finish. Without this text we would have to make certain assumptions about techniqes that would make them less valid or martially sound.
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Postby swordflasher » 27 Oct 2009 11:19

HuubB wrote:

The funny thing about Fiore is that he seems to be a bit..how shall I say this...a bit dandy, like a rooster, showing his feathers :)


Can you say 'Italian'? :)
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Postby HuubB » 28 Oct 2009 02:19

swordflasher wrote:
HuubB wrote:

The funny thing about Fiore is that he seems to be a bit..how shall I say this...a bit dandy, like a rooster, showing his feathers :)


Can you say 'Italian'? :)


Hihihi, :)

captain Bertorelli from the 'Allo, 'Allo series comes to mind now, lol!

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Postby Ken Osolinski » 28 Oct 2009 21:31

The Guardsman wrote:I always saw the text explaining the techniques(and still do), not as over confident/arrogant narrative, but the actual master of the technique explaining from its point of perspective in relation to that technique.

A more modern example(using boxing) would be.

The student that is before me has dropped his guard on the left side of his head while throwing a right hand punch. By stepping with my right foot around his left I turn my body and plant my right fist into his chin, and by doing this will make your whole body without strength or worse.

All I am saying here is volta if your opponant has a weak guard. But by telling you what to expect from both parties it makes more sense.

Basically he is telling you not only how to do the technique, but also quite helpfully for us, what to expect from doing this from start to finish. Without this text we would have to make certain assumptions about techniqes that would make them less valid or martially sound.
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