To Thrust or Cut - Crossed at the Point

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To Thrust or Cut - Crossed at the Point

Postby Randall Pleasant » 12 Oct 2009 22:19

I just got a copy of Tom Leoni's Getty translation and was reading the play where one is crossed at the point. Fiore says that one may either thrust or cut to the other side of the other blade. For the most part this reads just like Ringeck except for one very important thing. Ringeck tells us that the decision to either thrust or to cut to the other side of the blade should be based upon the pressure of the bind. Unless I have just totally missed it, Fiore says nothing. So my questions to the Fiore people are: What factor do you use in deciding to thrust or cut and is that factor described in Fiore? At this point I assume it is pressure as described by Ringneck.

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Postby Monster Zero » 12 Oct 2009 22:50

This is found in the FMA as well and is based on the concept of center line.

When crossed at the point if the opponent's defence has crossed the center of their body and or is pressing strongly, you cut to the other side as their pressure will move their defense out of position.

If their defense is not past the center line, you thrust as you should be in line with their center mass.
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Postby The Guardsman » 13 Oct 2009 09:55

Yup depends on the pressure. Either thrust to the face(or grab their weapon and then thrust), or volta cut.
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Postby admin » 13 Oct 2009 11:00

Yep, what Neil said. And if you thrust and they apply pressure then you respond accordingly (such as with a volta and cut to the other side).
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Postby joshua cartwright » 13 Oct 2009 19:08

My application of this is closer to what Thom said. If my point is on-line, thrust; if they have maintained control of the center-line, cut around.
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Postby Randall Pleasant » 13 Oct 2009 23:05

joshua cartwright wrote:My application of this is closer to what Thom said. If my point is on-line, thrust; if they have maintained control of the center-line, cut around.


And that's totally reasonable since it is basically just another way of saying to respond to blade pressure. However, my real question was, "Does Fiore describe the factor anywhere within the Getty?" I am assuming that I am missing a lot as I reading over it.
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 16 Oct 2009 14:42

Randall,

Fiore does not describe the factor directly unfortunately. But as much as there may be - for the more experienced fighter - at times multiple options in a given situation (here the crossing), there is very strong evidence that all of Fiore's plays exist to answer a specific configuration of blades and bodies.

This structure is not evident at first, but when looking at the plays in detail, and with practical examination of each of them the structure and the underlying decision tree (the tree model is hinted at in the final picture of the getty) starts to emerge.

Guy Windsor has made extensive research on this and as far as I know he will be publishing an essay discussing the different crossings in the near future.

But to answer your question, you will find (in the Getty) masters crossed once at the point of the sword and twice at the middle of the sword, and if you read Tom's translation on these you have petty much all that Fiore tells you about the crossings directly. Also pay attention to the plays of sword in one hand both on foot and on horseback, and to the descriptions of what each guard position says about himself.


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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 04 Nov 2009 13:58

Hi,

the article by Guy Windsor I mentioned earlier can be downloaded from here:

http://www.swordschool.com/publications/articles.html


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Ilkka
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 04 Nov 2009 14:58

...and a few vids to go with the article:

Sword in one hand

Gioco Largo

Gioco Stretto

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Postby Randall Pleasant » 04 Nov 2009 16:18

Ilkka

Thanks!
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Postby Kim Young » 04 Nov 2009 16:23

Superb stuff! Thank you!

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Postby Motley » 04 Nov 2009 17:00

Thanks for posting these Ilkka.

I have just had a very quick initial read through and I like the way it ties the sword work together coherently.

I have always been unhappy with the initial crossing in the sword in one hand where the blase after the cross appears to be on the far side of the attackers blade. I just couldn't figure out how to get there.

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Postby Gil-Galadh » 05 Nov 2009 08:32

Those are awesome vids. And extremely helpful :!:
Thank's very much for uploading them,Ikka
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