Getty translation

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Postby Motley » 08 Jul 2009 14:55

admin wrote:More effort that it's worth. For me at least. :)


darn! :-)
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Postby admin » 08 Jul 2009 15:31

Well let's face it, most of the PD text is a bit crap anyway.
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Postby Dai D » 08 Jul 2009 15:45

Al Aitken wrote:Brilliant, does it have the full manuscript - are the armoured and horse sections translated?


Al I'll bring it tonight..
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Postby steve hick » 08 Jul 2009 18:30

Al Aitken wrote:Brilliant, does it have the full manuscript - are the armoured and horse sections translated?


Not a problem right now, unless you were an early adopter, but one page was inadvertantly left in the Italian, this has been corrected and a translation of that page is up on the Seven Hearts page.

For those of us who have the misprinted edition, hold onto it, some day it will be a collector's item (G).

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Postby Motley » 08 Jul 2009 21:08

steve hick wrote:
Al Aitken wrote:Brilliant, does it have the full manuscript - are the armoured and horse sections translated?


Not a problem right now, unless you were an early adopter, but one page was inadvertantly left in the Italian, this has been corrected and a translation of that page is up on the Seven Hearts page.

For those of us who have the misprinted edition, hold onto it, some day it will be a collector's item (G).

Steve


That's what I am hoping!
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Postby Brewerkel » 09 Jul 2009 12:12

admin wrote:
Brewerkel wrote:He is a native Italian


He was born in Switzerland actually, but let's not nitpick. :lol:

'kay.

Kel, I don't know why you've launched into yet another rant... you seem to be doing that a lot these days.


I'm not saying that Tom's translation will be in any way deficient - quite the opposite, I'm saying that there are about 8 translations of Getty floating around now and they are all pretty much the same... so I doubt Tom's will be much different, and therefore just as good.
No need to jump to Tom's defence as there is nothing to defend.



You're just beginning to notice, perhaps. :lol: The idea that Tom would bother to reference Bob's recent work is, well, comical to me.

Its fair to say we all appreciate the work you, Bob and Rob did years ago putting Fiore out there for others to study. Especially putting Ela & your translation on the web. Rob and Mark did everyone a favour with their work as well. AEMMA's early translation was weak to say the least. Aldo sorted that out a couple years ago. Aldo wanted to wait to publish his as he knew Tom had one in progress. When a native Italian speaker defers to another Italian speaker, those of us that are not would do well to listen.

That said, minor differences in translation can make a big difference in interpretation. A 70-80% accurate translation leads to some strange interpretations in practice. A 95% accurate translation can sort out some very confusing passages. To say they are substantially the same is theoretically appropriate but in practice, not accurate.

It remains to be seen how far any of us were off the mark on the handful of points we often discuss.
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Postby Brewerkel » 09 Jul 2009 12:18

admin wrote:Well let's face it, most of the PD text is a bit crap anyway.


Crib notes for someone already in the know. Not particularly useful for study.
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Postby Motley » 09 Jul 2009 15:03

Brewerkel wrote:
admin wrote:Well let's face it, most of the PD text is a bit crap anyway.


Crib notes for someone already in the know. Not particularly useful for study.


I've heard the opinion from some people that they prefer the PD though, not sure why myself, I like it and the drawings are a but cuter but I prefer the getty.
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Postby admin » 09 Jul 2009 15:20

PD would not be a useful source without Getty.
Also we only have access to Novati's facsimile of PD. We don't know how faithful it is to the original, yet.
If someone says they prefer PD then they're probably not worth listening to.
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Postby Kit Houston » 11 Jul 2009 02:11

I got mine yesterday.

I'm more of a 'hulk smash' kind of a guy than a 'literally geniuses' so this is not a review.

It's the full translation with nothing else, no images , no real lead in or history.
You will be happy as its clearly laid out, simple to read and a little modem in the translation.

It will do me for now, you can still come to a few different interpretations of what it all means as you could come to the right one.

I like the words used in the wrestling!

Tom has a light go at people that apply Aristotle to the art, the "Conan Thug's" and the 'Sports' tournaments guys at the start.

I use a bit of everything above in what I do so I guess I'll never know Fiore like Tom.

So what do I think (who cares I hear you say!) ....... Unless you have translated it yourself, buy it and use it until something better comes along.

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Postby Lyceum » 11 Jul 2009 09:09

You know, from a Linguistics point of view...we really can't hold too much stock in the whole "native speaker" thing from the point of looking back at a now extinct version of a language, especially like Italian which hardly had a standard back then, in terms of connotations and hidden meanings etc they'd be equally as difficult for the native or the non native to translate.

Calm down with that.

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Postby leonardo daneluz » 12 Jul 2009 01:35

Lyceum wrote:You know, from a Linguistics point of view...we really can't hold too much stock in the whole "native speaker" thing from the point of looking back at a now extinct version of a language, especially like Italian which hardly had a standard back then, in terms of connotations and hidden meanings etc they'd be equally as difficult for the native or the non native to translate.

Calm down with that.

/Classicist.



In my family and country there is a significant amount of people from the Triveneto. When they read Fiore don´t usually have a particular firm grasp at its meaning.
There are several expressions there which are used today or were used until recent times though (comes to my mind "altera volta" = in other time, which may be mistaken for the "volta" action) .

What puzzles me is that even when Fiore was a friulan he seemed to live most of his live in other places at the service of italian noblemen .
And he still writes in some friulanesque italian? at 50? Was that the way D´Este family talked?
Isn´t strange?
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Postby Lyceum » 12 Jul 2009 10:31

leonardo daneluz wrote:
Lyceum wrote:You know, from a Linguistics point of view...we really can't hold too much stock in the whole "native speaker" thing from the point of looking back at a now extinct version of a language, especially like Italian which hardly had a standard back then, in terms of connotations and hidden meanings etc they'd be equally as difficult for the native or the non native to translate.

Calm down with that.

/Classicist.



In my family and country there is a significant amount of people from the Triveneto. When they read Fiore don´t usually have a particular firm grasp at its meaning.
There are several expressions there which are used today or were used until recent times though (comes to my mind "altera volta" = in other time, which may be mistaken for the "volta" action) .

What puzzles me is that even when Fiore was a friulan he seemed to live most of his live in other places at the service of italian noblemen .
And he still writes in some friulanesque italian? at 50? Was that the way D´Este family talked?
Isn´t strange?


Hmm? I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here my friend. Just because an expression is used to day hardly means it carries the original connotations it had. Although expressions tend to be more conservative and if we assume that they were technical terms then, yes, again they would be more conservative.

I've met several Englishmen who use Anglo Saxon sayings and what not, gods I've met a few Northeners who use A/Saxon constructions and thing, it's not a question of language changing so much as connotations etc.

Damn good point though, if Fiore was moving around alot, of course other dialects would influence the way he spoke, it happens to all of us. Can we take this into mind when translating?

Not meaning to disparage anybody's translation or anything, just saying..

Regardless. I would love to own a paper copy of the translation, but the Lulu link takes me nowhere. I suppose I shall have to make do with Matt's translation online. :lol:
No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself"

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Postby Motley » 12 Jul 2009 23:19

Lyceum wrote:
leonardo daneluz wrote:
Lyceum wrote:You know, from a Linguistics point of view...we really can't hold too much stock in the whole "native speaker" thing from the point of looking back at a now extinct version of a language, especially like Italian which hardly had a standard back then, in terms of connotations and hidden meanings etc they'd be equally as difficult for the native or the non native to translate.

Calm down with that.

/Classicist.



In my family and country there is a significant amount of people from the Triveneto. When they read Fiore don´t usually have a particular firm grasp at its meaning.
There are several expressions there which are used today or were used until recent times though (comes to my mind "altera volta" = in other time, which may be mistaken for the "volta" action) .

What puzzles me is that even when Fiore was a friulan he seemed to live most of his live in other places at the service of italian noblemen .
And he still writes in some friulanesque italian? at 50? Was that the way D´Este family talked?
Isn´t strange?


Hmm? I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here my friend. Just because an expression is used to day hardly means it carries the original connotations it had. Although expressions tend to be more conservative and if we assume that they were technical terms then, yes, again they would be more conservative.

I've met several Englishmen who use Anglo Saxon sayings and what not, gods I've met a few Northeners who use A/Saxon constructions and thing, it's not a question of language changing so much as connotations etc.

Damn good point though, if Fiore was moving around alot, of course other dialects would influence the way he spoke, it happens to all of us. Can we take this into mind when translating?

Not meaning to disparage anybody's translation or anything, just saying..

Regardless. I would love to own a paper copy of the translation, but the Lulu link takes me nowhere. I suppose I shall have to make do with Matt's translation online. :lol:


I think the linkk had to be updated for the errata, a short commign of lulu it would seem, try searching for it?
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Postby leonardo daneluz » 13 Jul 2009 14:52

Agreed. Lyceum, but some expressions are so simply that they need a second look:

Fiore:

"altera volta"= lit. another turn

Italianesque Buenos Aires spanish:

"otra vuelta"= lit. another turn = in other time

You put that into fiore´s sentence and it has clear meaning. Also non italian/spanish speakers have reached to the same conclusion (with more effort).

But we surely lost several other expressions in Fiore though so, generally speaking, you are right.
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