So, how many Fiores are there?

Fiore dei Liberi and his treatises Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum c.1410.
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Postby Michael Chidester » 28 May 2009 16:42

admin wrote:Technically you cannot copyright an old manuscript. But you can copyright the scans/photos of it.

Actually, as it's been explained to me, through some miscarriage of justice museums can do that. And the scans as well. Fricking copyright laws... :evil:
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 28 May 2009 17:40

Hi,

to avoid all copyright issues I think it's best to let just Dierk order the scans. We can still help him in terms of funding. And then Dierk can show the pictures to us. Nobody is going to copy or publish anything.


Yours,
Ilkka
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Postby admin » 28 May 2009 17:57

Indeed.
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Postby Sylvan C » 28 May 2009 17:57

They really, really, really aren't copyrighted. No matter what claims are made. Institutions regularly make indefensible copyright claims, not because they are evil or even mean to give anybody a hard time, more often simply because they are misinformed - or even just attaching claims to everything in their collection, just in case, to protect themselves.

But remember, I Am Not A Lawyer.

However, please don't let the current atmosphere of copyright hysteria prevent you from sharing an ancient work for research purposes.

In that vein, a friend of mine who happens to live and work in the Friuli region (Fiore's stomping grounds) pointed me at this today:

http://books.google.it/books?id=0t8KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA359&ots=3j0pDrAjFF&dq=zugare#PPA26,M1

It's a dictionary of Venetian Italian, published in 1864. It might help someone more comfortable with modern Italian when looking at some of these works. Then again, it might not, heheh, but it's worth posting just in case.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 28 May 2009 18:13

Please.

Don't turn this thread into a copyright-of-old-manuscripts-is-a-bad-thing thread. I have heard it all before. I doubt there are any new arguments.

And IF a museum - however unlikely - sues somebody it might be the person that ordered the files. And if there is only one person in the world who did so, the track is quite clear, isn't it?

So, really no need to press me here, okay?
And yes, perhaps I am a bit hysteric. What do I know about Austrian law?

But dear Ilkka, I think showing you and some other interested individuals the files can do no harm to any copyright. So, since all of us meet anyway in the near future, that shouldn't be a problem, should it?

A brief update: The book says there are 203 folios, the library catalogue offers only 190. I have asked for clarification before I order.

Best greetings
Dierk
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Postby Kit Houston » 28 May 2009 23:05

I still happy to contribute to the 'PayPal' idea yet the chance of me meeting up in the next few years are slim. ;)
Last edited by Kit Houston on 28 May 2009 23:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Michael Chidester » 28 May 2009 23:10

Seeing as how I won't see any of you in the foreseeable future, I suppose I'll have to see about getting scans independently.
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Postby Abomination » 29 May 2009 10:40

Michael Chidester wrote:Seeing as how I won't see any of you in the foreseeable future, I suppose I'll have to see about getting scans independently.


I assumed the scans will be in electronic format. So distribution would be fairly straight forward.

I'd chip in.
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Postby Reinier » 29 May 2009 10:58

I can chip in as well! 8)
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 02 Jun 2009 12:44

I just ordered.

Unfortunately it is not the whole manuscript that is available - as I feared. For some reason the last pages are missing.

Here's what the library wrote to me:
From the fencing book part (fol. 174r – 203r) some folios are missing indeed; only 174r – 190r and fol. 196r are available (tha latter had been photographed at a different time and thus is not listed in the digital catalogue). Digital reproductions are possible from these negatives. Further new photos were prohibited due to conversatoinal reasons by the Handschriftensammlung (manuscript collection).

So I ordered what was available. Let's see when it arrives.

Best regards
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 02 Jun 2009 13:52

Good job!

I'm excited to hear what you will find out!

The bits that are missing, are they really missing or just not available as microfilm or other reproductions at this time?

Yours,
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 02 Jun 2009 14:30

Ilkka Hartikainen wrote:The bits that are missing, are they really missing or just not available as microfilm or other reproductions at this time?

Oh, sorry, I was being imprecise. It's only the negatives that are incomplete. And there seems to be no chance to remedy this in the near future.

All the best
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 02 Jun 2009 14:57

Dierk, thanks, that is comforting news in any case! :D

- Ilkka
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Postby admin » 02 Jun 2009 15:17

Thanks for doing this Dierk. 8)
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Postby Kit Houston » 02 Jun 2009 23:33

Agree .. Thanks.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 06 Jun 2009 22:02

All right.

I have them.

18 images.

Which I will gladly show you next time we meet.

They are black and white, and since there are only illustrations on the recto pages, the number of images is quite small - the last few pages have not been reproduced, as I mentioned earlier.

Besides, there is in fact no text at all. Nevertheless, an abundance of techniques is displayed: wrestling, dagger and longswordf fighting, spear and halfswording techniques, horsefighting and a single page showing armoured combat.
I'll have a more thorough look tomorrow.
This seems to be quite a strange manuscript indeed. (And luckily, I do not have to bother to transcribe it.)

But now for something completely different:
Whoever might be interested in supporting a poor illustrator in need might contact me via PM.

All the best
Dierk
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Postby Kit Houston » 09 Jun 2009 00:02

Sweet!

Some time in the next 10 years I hope to get to Europe:)
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Postby Kit Houston » 09 Jun 2009 02:15

I hate to use JJ/BJJ reference to WMA but.......
Would the top right drawing be what we would call side mount?


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Postby Alex Kiermayer » 10 Jun 2009 19:18

Basically yes, but with the weight a little bit higher on the body.


Servus,

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Postby Michael Chidester » 14 Jun 2009 10:34

Damn it, I was afraid of this. The missing segment of the scans includes the entire longsword section, excepting the two poste already pictured in this thread. :(
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