So, how many Fiores are there?

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So, how many Fiores are there?

Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 24 May 2009 22:05

Please, my dear Fioreists,

pardon me if this is a silly question. Until a few minutes ago a was under the impression that there were four Fiore manuscripts. Now I just finished reading "Katalog der deutschsprachigen illustrierten Handschriften des Mittelalters" (Catalogue of the illustrated manuscripts in German language from the Middle Ages) from Verlag C.H. Beck. On p. 134 f. a manuscript is mentioned I had previously not been aware of: Cod. 5278 from Österreichische Nationalbibliothek in Vienna.
The contents:
1r–173v: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis
174r–203r: Fiore Furlan dei Liberi da Premariacco, "Flos Duellatorum", edited version, without text.
(There are also two images in the appendix.)

What can you tell me about this manuscript?

Curious:
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Postby Fab » 24 May 2009 23:26

..I was unaware of it. Or was I ?


Could you perchance provide scans of the images ?
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Re: So, how many Fiores are there?

Postby steve hick » 25 May 2009 01:28

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:Please, my dear Fioreists,

pardon me if this is a silly question. Until a few minutes ago a was under the impression that there were four Fiore manuscripts. Now I just finished reading "Katalog der deutschsprachigen illustrierten Handschriften des Mittelalters" (Catalogue of the illustrated manuscripts in German language from the Middle Ages) from Verlag C.H. Beck. On p. 134 f. a manuscript is mentioned I had previously not been aware of: Cod. 5278 from Österreichische Nationalbibliothek in Vienna.
The contents:
1r–173v: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis
174r–203r: Fiore Furlan dei Liberi da Premariacco, "Flos Duellatorum", edited version, without text.
(There are also two images in the appendix.)

What can you tell me about this manuscript?

Curious:
Dierk


This is most likely not THE Flos Duellatorum (the PD), can you scan the images? Per discussions that have been going on for 2-3 years now, that is in Italy, unless it moved in the last year.

I've not bought the book yet, it sounds wonderful. Although, this work is not strictly in the German language.... I wonder if they encountered other MSS not German in their researches.

Steve

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Postby admin » 25 May 2009 01:48

The most part of it definitely seems to be a copy of Bellifortis:
http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/kultdoku/kata ... l/1380.htm

The allusion to some Fiore being added to the last folios is very exciting.

More possible info:
http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/H ... 19_jpg.htm

http://www.manuscripta-mediaevalia.de/H ... 20_jpg.htm

I looked up Codex 5278 at the Austrian National Library picture database and it gave a description for Folio 174:
"Drei turnier - darstellungen"
That is in English:
"Three tournaments - representations"
Hmmmm, interesting.
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 25 May 2009 11:18

Hmmmh...

from http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/kultdoku/kata ... l/1380.htm:

174r bis 203r: Kampfdarstellungen aus Talhoffers Fechtbuch in schwarzer und braun-schwarzer Federzeichnung von mehreren Händen ausgeführt. Die Darstellungen von 174r bis 177r weisen stilistisch auf den Meister 1 des Bellifortisteiles.

So which one is it? :D

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Re: So, how many Fiores are there?

Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 May 2009 14:18

steve hick wrote:can you scan the images?

Yes, I can:
Image

steve hick wrote:This is most likely not THE Flos Duellatorum (the PD)

Well, they say: "Bearbeitung", so it is not the original.

steve hick wrote:I wonder if they encountered other MSS not German in their researches.

Who knows? The book however contains only manuscripts with German text, therefore they even omitted a latin-only version by P.H. Mair

Ilkka Hartikainen wrote:So which one is it?

It really seems rather tricky to tell. Attributions are an easy thing – particuarly when there's no text involved. What looks to one person's eyes like Talhoffer might end up as a Fiore in somebody's others.

admin wrote:The most part of it definitely seems to be a copy of Bellifortis

Yes, absolutely. Besides, your "possible info" is a bit weird since it contains no notion whatsoever about a fencing part but instead a number of recipes and instructions. But then again it is quite possible that these appear randomly throughout the manucript (which happens – as the lovers of 3227a from Nuremberg very well know).

I don't know what to make of it. I am a bit aghast; be it Fiore or Talhoffer – I have never heard of this manuscript before.

Very curious indeed. Perhaps somebody has to order a digital copy of this manuscript.

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Re: So, how many Fiores are there?

Postby steve hick » 25 May 2009 14:23

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:
steve hick wrote:can you scan the images?

Yes, I can:
Image

steve hick wrote:This is most likely not THE Flos Duellatorum (the PD)

Well, they say: "Bearbeitung", so it is not the original.

steve hick wrote:I wonder if they encountered other MSS not German in their researches.

Who knows? The book however contains only manuscripts with German text, therefore they even omitted a latin-only version by P.H. Mair

Ilkka Hartikainen wrote:So which one is it?

It really seems rather tricky to tell. Attributions are an easy thing – particuarly when there's no text involved. What looks to one person's eyes like Talhoffer might end up as a Fiore in somebody's others.

admin wrote:The most part of it definitely seems to be a copy of Bellifortis

Yes, absolutely. Besides, your "possible info" is a bit weird since it contains no notion whatsoever about a fencing part but instead a number of recipes and instructions. But then again it is quite possible that these appear randomly throughout the manucript (which happens – as the lovers of 3227a from Nuremberg very well know).

I don't know what to make of it. I am a bit aghast; be it Fiore or Talhoffer – I have never heard of this manuscript before.

Very curious indeed. Perhaps somebody has to order a digital copy of this manuscript.

Dierk


Look at the techniques, this is not purely Talhoffer, the lower right hand corner looks like 2 posta from Fiore, then just above, the wrestling 3 guys that looks like Talhoffer.

Its nothing we've seen before, very interesting, a find Dierk.

Shame it doesn't list other languages as well, but then, its great it does this much.
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Postby Fab » 25 May 2009 14:31

Fascinating.


Who's ordering a copy ?



PS : doesn't Von Eyb also contains Bellifortis-like parts, Fiore-like parts and other-German-traditions-like parts ?
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 May 2009 14:55

Fab wrote:doesn't Von Eyb also contains Bellifortis-like parts, Fiore-like parts and other-German-traditions-like parts ?

Bellifortis: Yes.
Fiore-like parts: Well, I am not so very fluent with all of the Fiore images, but there is at least a crowned wrestler fighting a dagger perosn on fol. 31v.
Other German traditions-like parts: Absolutely. Definitely sections about Franconian shields.

But interestingly, I just discovered two very similar (wrestling?) situations that appear also in the scan above: In both mss. there are the two groups of thre persons seen from behind. Curious, curious.

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Postby Fab » 25 May 2009 15:06

Yep, seen that too.


Ok, all we need now is a German speaker - I can provide the academic credentials if needed :)
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 May 2009 15:21

Fab wrote:Ok, all we need now is a German speaker
What for?

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Postby Brian Stokes » 25 May 2009 16:09

Great find. Having looked at Von Eyb and now seeing this adds evidence to my speculation that the presentation copy of the d'Este family made it back to their relatives back in Saxony. I know it is not in the Vatican libraries ( the Duke of Urbino acquired part of the d'Este library which then in total went to the Vatican) so I have been wondering about the German connection. I'll write more about this later as I am on a plane heading back home west from ISMAC and as they just closed the door I have a stewardess shaking her finger at me.

Ciao!

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Postby Motley » 25 May 2009 16:22

oooh this is all very exciting ;-)
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Postby Fab » 25 May 2009 16:35

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:What for?

D.


Ordering a copy/microfilm of it.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 May 2009 16:55

Fab wrote:Ordering a copy/microfilm of it.

Sure, I was just kidding. I already wrote an e-mail and asked about it.

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Postby Fab » 25 May 2009 16:57

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:Sure, I was just kidding. I already wrote an e-mail and asked about it.
D.


Sweet.
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Postby admin » 25 May 2009 21:57

Awesome, so the page on the left is pure Fiore mounted stuff - not a direct copy of any original version we know of, but clearly a copy of a version of Fiore's treatise. The two figures at the bottom of the right page are from Fiore. The middle figures on the right page are from Codex Wallerstein aren't they?
I'm now thinking two things - Von Eyb and/or Mair.. it looks like someone's drawing notes from their (or someone else's) collection of fencing manuscripts. Like Mair's renditions on I.33 or Von Eyb's renditions of Fiore etc.

Excellent find Dierk!! 8)
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 May 2009 22:31

admin wrote:Awesome, so the page on the left is pure Fiore mounted stuff - not a direct copy of any original version we know of, but clearly a copy of a version of Fiore's treatise. The two figures at the bottom of the right page are from Fiore.

I only possess the Fiore book by Marco Rubboli and Luca Cesari; the images can indeed clearly be indentified. Stunning.

admin wrote:The middle figures on the right page are from Codex Wallerstein aren't they?

Not exactly:
ImageImage

admin wrote:I'm now thinking two things - Von Eyb and/or Mair.. it looks like someone's drawing notes from their (or someone else's) collection of fencing manuscripts. Like Mair's renditions on I.33 or Von Eyb's renditions of Fiore etc.

Actually, I don't know what to think. The links between the manuscripts seem to be more fluent than I had imagined. I also have to re-check von Eyb. Unfortunately my copy is so lousy that the text is almost impossible to read.

I'm eagerly awaiting news from Vienna.

Good night
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Postby Alex Kiermayer » 25 May 2009 23:26

Hi there,

the two figures on the upper right are exactly the same as in von Eyb. But von Eyb has text to go with them and they regard ground wrestling. If I recall correctly the figures below are also in vom Eyb. The subject of them is playful wrestling, how to hold two people at once. This is not inteded for combat purposes but more for showing off in society.

I have to look into my paper copies to comment on the rest.


Servus,

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Postby Michael Chidester » 26 May 2009 07:22

Fascinating. Excellent find, Dierk.
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