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Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 10 Jul 2013 08:04
by Ulrich von L...n
A place to amass information on medieval sabres (Avar, Hungarian, Russian, Bulgarian etc).

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Saltovo-Mayaki site, Khazar Khaganate (8-10thC)

Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 10 Jul 2013 08:07
by Ulrich von L...n
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Karos site, Hungary, 9thC

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Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 10 Jul 2013 08:15
by Ulrich von L...n
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Byzantine paramerion

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Sabres from Russian (1,3,5,7) and allied Pecheneg (2,4,6,8,9) burial sites (11thC - first half of 13thC)
Allied Pecheneg = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherniye_Klobuki

Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 10 Jul 2013 08:19
by Ulrich von L...n
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Sabre of Prince Fedor M Mstislavski (Russia)

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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2013 14:41
by Ulrich von L...n
Image
The Mongols in Hungary 1241.
Ink and paint on pergament. Height 25.3 cm, width 32.8 cm.
Széchényi National Library, Budapest, fol. 63 recto, Inv. no. Clmae 404.
From the Chronicum Pictum (1358): viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20263

King Bela IV fleeing from the Mongols after the Battle of Muhi. The Mongol leader might be Qadan, a son of Ögedei.

PostPosted: 11 Jul 2013 06:27
by Ulrich von L...n
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"Medieval Hungarian or Venetian sabre dating from 1450-1480

Blade length: 79cm
Total length: 98 cm
Tang/grip: 14cm and 3 Gothic crosses are stamped in the tang.
Pommel style: Oakeshott type Z: 6 cm x 4.5 cm
Cross: type 12
Weight: 1130gr

S shaped sabre with a Venetian or Hungarian origin, very good condition with a beautiful black brown patina! The blade shows light pitting and traces of combat along at the edge. Type Z pommel which is developed later into the cat-pommel in the 18thC on the well known Venetian broadsword called "schiavona". S or 8 shaped cross with flutted lines from the heart to the finals.

This type of saber can been seen in the arsenal of Venice as well in the national museum of Budapest, till now I never encountered one in a similar excellent condition as this one. Because of the vulcano type of indoor pitting at the blade, it is not a ground find but must have been preserved indoors in a church or grave.

Publications: Mueller/Koelling/Platow p171, Ubojite Ostrice p30, another one sold at Sothebys in 2002."

Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 16 Jul 2013 13:38
by leonardo daneluz
Peter Johnsson has made one of those early sabers recently. It gives a good idea of the look they had.



http://www.peterjohnsson.com/early-sabre/

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2013 07:22
by Ulrich von L...n
A superb example of very nice craftsmanship!
Thanks for sharing it.

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2013 07:38
by Ulrich von L...n
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From an archeological site in Central Tuva, Russia (Могильник Эйлиг-Хем III, 1965)
9thC, with an inscription in Arabic (http://kronk.spb.ru/img/grach-ad-1998-t10a.jpg)

"Одна из них (кург. 2), известная как «меч Багыра», подробно описана Ю.С. Худяковым: «Длина клинка 90, высота рукояти 9 см. Прямая узкая полоса с лезвием, параллельным спинке, полого сужается к остроугольному острию. Остриё клинка расковано на два лезвия. По обе стороны клинка вдоль спинки отчеканено по одной куфической надписи. Гарда с опущенными в сторону шаровидными концами, с язычком в сторону рукояти, богато украшена растительным орнаментом. На черене рукояти, изогнутой в сторону лезвия, проделано отверстие для крепления обкладки; шляпка заклёпки на нем имеет вид крестообразной розетки с четырьмя концами» [Худяков, 1980, с. 42]. К этому следует добавить наличие фигурной оковки в верхней части клинка и растительный орнамент на обеих сторонах клинка, обращённых к лезвию (табл. X, 1). Вместе с саблей были найдены напильник-мусат для правки лезвия (табл. X, 2), обоймы (табл. X, 3-7) и гладкий наконечник с кольцом от ножен (табл. X, 8.). По мастерству исполнения, сохранности и художественной ценности декоративного оформления «меч Багыра», сделанный из дамасской стали, не имеет себе равных среди всех остальных находок подобного рода в Центральной Азии и Южной Сибири.

Особое значение ему придают арабские куфические надписи, выгравированные по обеим сторонам клинка. Хотя погребение датируется концом Х — началом XI вв., характерные особенности эфеса позволяют датировать «меч» IX-м веком. Палеографический анализ позволяет выявить некоторую графическую стилизацию, продуманную композицию надписи и профессиональные навыки гравёра, оставившего на клинке благословляющую оружие сентенцию. Особенности надписи также позволяют отнести её к ранним куфическим вариантам не позднее второй половины IX в. Текст является весьма характерным для надписей на клинках, изготовленных в мусульманских областях, подвластных арабам. Скорее всего палаш был захвачен после одной из побед в период «великодержавия», когда границы владений енисейских кыргызов, пользуясь образным выражением В.В. Бартольда, «вплотную подошли к пределам мусульманского мира» и затем передавался из поколения в поколение в среде знатных кыргызских воинов, пока не оказался в одном из погребений в далекой Туве."

http://kronk.spb.ru/library/grach-ad-1998-05.htm

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2013 08:26
by Ulrich von L...n
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Khazar swords (the second half of 7thC), transitional variants, sabres (9-10thC)

A good Russian article on the evolution of Khazar weapons:
A.V. Komarov, O.V. Suhobokov Weapons and Military Science of the Khazar Khaganate (2000)
http://archaeology.kiev.ua/journal/0203 ... obokov.htm

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2013 08:40
by Ulrich von L...n
Image
Krasnodarskii Krai, Russia (Оружие из кенотафа Андреевская щель, 1992)
(the first half of 12thC)

Total length: 71 cm, double-edged section: 13 cm
http://swordmaster.org/2013/05/27/voins ... schel.html

PostPosted: 20 Jul 2013 16:06
by Ulrich von L...n
A Khazar sabre, presumably a graverobber's find, advertised at a Russian site in 2011:
http://forum.violity.com/viewtopic.php?t=378719

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Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 22 Jul 2013 07:11
by leonardo daneluz
Nice details on the guard. Sadly I never find pictures of blades in good condition. Besides the Charlemagne's one, or course.

PostPosted: 23 Jul 2013 05:51
by Ulrich von L...n
Sabre of Charlemagne:

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From The Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna: The Imperial and Ecclestiastical Treasury
by C.H.Beck, 2009

PostPosted: 23 Jul 2013 06:18
by Ulrich von L...n
Two interesting features of the above sabre:

- quillon:

"Each quillon is a separate piece, like the original. They overlap at the center and are secured with a pin. The pin passes all the way through the hilt and is peened on the opposite side. Similar pins secure the decorated plate next to the guard and the pommel itself."

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- very long false edge (28.75-11 = 17.75 inches = 45 cm) + elman (CAS Iberia variant)

"The saber's blade is fairly complex. The first eleven inches of the blade (its base) features a thick spine that tapers from .24 inches to .18 inches. At that point it thins out and sweeps up to a false edge that runs for the rest of the blade's length. A fuller runs most of the length of the blade, tapering in width along the blade's length. Where the spine changes to the false edge the fuller is interrupted, rising up and actually becoming thicker than the blade before resuming its run toward the point. While I'm not exactly sure of the purpose of this feature, it is present on the original and is visually interesting. The entire fuller is decorated on both sides with plated gold, showing running foliage and stylized beasts."

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Source: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_casi_charlemagne.html

PS: CAS Iberia's sabre (94 cm) is a little longer than the original one (90.5 cm)

PostPosted: 26 Jul 2013 18:34
by Ulrich von L...n
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The Chingul sabre (the second third of 13thC, the burial site of a Polovec khan). Slightly curved, total length: 1.3 m, blade width: 4 cm, hilt: 15 cm.

http://swordmaster.org/2010/12/01/polov ... rganu.html

Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 01 Aug 2013 18:54
by Jeremy S.
A German langes messer from ca. 1500. I love this one and need to try to examine it before the museum closes!
http://higgins.lostpapyr.us/artifacts/2036.3

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Re: Medieval sabres

PostPosted: 02 Aug 2013 13:46
by Gil-Galadh
Let's see...
A saber in Haskovo museum, Bulgaria. Probably 7-10th century:
Image

A saber from the XII-XIV century identical to the one depicted on the St. Mercorious above and other similar images ( Is paramerion used interchangeably with saber? I'm confused). It is currently kep in The National Historical Museum, Sophia (they also got a huge XIIa swod there)
Image

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To the right - a saber from 9-10th C I think.
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Here is a reconstruction of a saber 7-10th C a friend made:

Image

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I can dig up some more photos of originals, but it will be later

PostPosted: 14 Nov 2013 17:54
by Ulrich von L...n
This one isn't medieval, but nevertheless it is close to that period.

Henry VIII's sabre reproduction:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29212

Could it be confirmed that the Royal Armory indeed has a sabre owned by Henry VIII?

PostPosted: 18 Nov 2013 07:21
by Ulrich von L...n
Some additional data about the above sabre reproduction:
"Weight 3lb 5oz / 1500g
POB 8" / 20cm from guard
Handle length 8" / 20cm"