Knightly effigies and brasses

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Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby admin » 20 Sep 2010 17:52

http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Motley » 20 Sep 2010 18:27

This is related in topic and also a fantastic resource:

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... lysis.html
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby KeithFarrell » 03 Jan 2012 14:28

"Monumental Effigies of Great Britain" by Thomas Hollis and George Hollis (1840):
http://ia700208.us.archive.org/10/items/monumentaleffigi00holl/monumentaleffigi00holl.pdf
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby admin » 24 May 2012 16:01

Put together by the same chap who made the effigies and brasses site:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Gary Gibson » 08 Nov 2014 18:48

Are there references similar to ""Monumental Effigies of Great Britain" covering effigies and brasses from what is now modern Italy ?

Are medieval/late-medieval brasses uncommon (E.g., compared to England) in Piedmont/Milan/Lombardy/Veneto/S. Holy Roman Empire ?

P.S. the link http://ia700208.us.archive.org/10/items/monumentaleffigi00holl/monumentaleffigi00holl.pdf does not seem to be working.
Last edited by Gary Gibson on 12 Nov 2014 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Sean M » 09 Nov 2014 09:24

Gary, in the Po watershed monuments are often high on the walls of churches rather than at ground level where they can conveniently be sketched, and armour scholars have often been British amateurs who published what was convenient.

These days there are online photographic resources like the Flickr channel of Roel Renmans https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Gary Gibson » 12 Nov 2014 05:44

Roel Renmans has a fantastic photo collection on Flickr. I have seen a few of his photos; but did not realize the extent of his collection - thanks!

I am currently engaged in preparatory research for a harness, this info is very helpful...

With respect to your your comments about these monuments often being high on the walls of churches; I have read that some of these (in what is now N. Italy) funerary monuments were created with perspective in mind for an observer below the monument such that the linear dimensions of the effigy can be skewed if this aspect not taken into account. Tobias Capwell also mentioned this in a discussion I had with him a few months ago.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Sean M » 14 Nov 2014 22:36

Gary Gibson wrote:With respect to your your comments about these monuments often being high on the walls of churches; I have read that some of these (in what is now N. Italy) funerary monuments were created with perspective in mind for an observer below the monument such that the linear dimensions of the effigy can be skewed if this aspect not taken into account. Tobias Capwell also mentioned this in a discussion I had with him a few months ago.

Humh ... that claim is new to me, and I can't recall any supporting evidence, but I absolutely have not read every book on Gothic sculpture. Dr. Capwell knows more about 15th century English armour than anyone else does, but 14th century Italy is not 15th century England, and I don't take anyone's word on armour. Still, unless you get permission to take photos from a ladder, it would not be an issue.

Another strategy is finding which late 14th century painters the art historians like, then borrowing books on them and noting all the armour. Then you can google those objects or sites and see what other photos are online. "Altichiero" and "Pisanello" should get you started.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Gary Gibson » 21 Nov 2014 07:51

I thought the claim about perspective in funerary monuments was quite interesting, which is why I brought it up. I am planning a few trips to Italy next year (I travel to Europe on business), and am looking for funerary monuments, frescoes, etc. to visit as part of the itinerary...

I will be bringing a telescoping boom/pole camera mount (which have become popular for GoPro cameras) to take pictures of monuments that are up on the walls of churches or other structures - primarily to get armor/ decoration / etc. details.

Thank you for the references, I had not seen Altichiero's work previously.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby admin » 21 Nov 2014 13:20

Gary, that's a really cool idea - just a warning though that lots of Italian churches don't allow photography unfortunately. Even some Italian museums don't allow it (I've been asked to leave several times...).
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Sean M » 22 Nov 2014 19:07

They seem to be comfortable with photos in the North-East, but I have never been to say Tuscany. I have seen tourists outdoors with those little extensible rods a metre long, but a full tripod inside a church might require permission. One closeup can definitely be worth many frontal views from five metres away!

Another resource for photos is Andrea Carloni's Flickr stream.

If you can find those references on perspective in funerary monuments again they would be a good contribution to this thread! I have not read as much by art historians as I would like to.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Gary Gibson » 23 Nov 2014 22:04

For Italian churches, perhaps I can take the same approach as I am with a couple of museums; requesting permission from their curators directly to take pictures of certain works for academic purposes...

I also have had experiences in Eastern Europe where I could pay a photography fee to be allowed to take pictures (for some this information was posted, for others arrangements/agreements needed to be made in advance with the institution - but I went through a university professor Bucharest).

Alternately, I may utilize a miniature HD camera (for the churches, at least, I can post-facto quietly beg for forgiveness at the alter :^)


Thank you for the link to Andrea Carloni's Flickr stream. He is quite good at framing and capturing subject detail in his photography.


The original reference I saw for perspective in elevation-raised funerary monuments was not a scholarly one, rather a discussion in a Czech or Slovak living history forum. The earliest related art-history references I currently know of are some of Donatello (Donato di Niccolo di Betto Bardi; c. 1386 - 12 Dec 1466) relief works. Donatello's guild relief niches at Orsanmichele in Florence for example; such as St. George commissioned by the Corazzai (the Armorer's guild, marble original now in the Bargello) and similarly Donatello's St. Mark commissioned by the linen drapers guild.


In a conversation with Tobias Capwell at the Joust (Tournament of the Phoenix) in Poway, CA, USA last October; as a followup discussion on funerary monuments I had with him after his Lecture at Orange Coast College "Building Medieval Plate Armor An Operator's Guide" a few days previous; I asked him about the dimensional accuracy armor sculpture in 15C. northern Italian funerary monuments, he mentioned the aspect of perspective as a cautionary note.

How and which Po-watershed area funerary monuments posses such prospective is open question to me at this point.


P.S. I'll post a link to Scott Farrell's videocast of Dr Tobias Capwell: "Building Medieval Plate Armor An Operator's Guide" in a separate post.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Sean M » 24 Nov 2014 14:30

Gary Gibson wrote:How and which Po-watershed area funerary monuments posses such prospective is open question to me at this point.

Yes, for all my respect for professional armour scholars and art historians, I am still more comfortable when I can point to a source to support a claim. Forums can be very useful for finding promising sources and articles, but tracking down the original source is often a lot of work. When I find one, I am usually surprised by the difference between what it says or shows and what I remembered or was told about it. That is one reason why I have shifted away from giving my opinion online and towards pointing people towards sources.
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Re: Knightly effigies and brasses

Postby Sean M » 31 Jan 2015 10:32

As I look up some of the dozen or so Italians whose effigies are online, I am realizing just how rich and powerful they were. The dozen or so in Effigies and Brasses from the age of Fiore include Konrad von Landau (who readers of The Ill-Made Knight will recall), an adventurer from a family of bankers who was widely rumored to be a queen's lover, Venetian generals like Jacopo Cavalli and Paolo Loredan, and princes like Bernabo Visconti and the Casa della Scala who put the "tyrant" in "tyraunts of Lumbardye/that usen wilfulhed und tyrannye." It is not just the men commemorated by statues either: Konrad von Landau and Francesco Datini received slabs with their portrait, and either could have bought most English knights out of petty cash.

Really pulling off an impression of someone like that would require tens of thousands of dollars, regular visits to a master tailor, and a dozen or so friends playing servant.
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