Leather Vambraces

[Matclarke]

Anyone know of any period reference to these? I'd prefer something within the middle ages or renaissance, but from 1950 CE till the beginning of time is ok. Interested in any source- artwork, text etc.

[Stevie T]

What sort of thing are you after?

The only ones I've seen for the medieval period are for archery.

[Matclarke]

[bigdummy]

I thnk those ae mostly Ren Faire / Lord of the Rings / DnD kind of things, though I'm open to being wrong

[Nuggan]

I thnk those ae mostly Ren Faire / Lord of the Rings / DnD kind of things, though I'm open to being wrong

You are right, the First Ones are LOTR Gondorian Style.

[Lyceum]

WTF would those things do? I know we have evidence from stone age graves where leather cuffs were worn to protect the wrist from bow strings, I think the hunns and the mongols wore similar, but I fail to see the advantage for swordplay.

[The Guardsman]

WTF would those things do? I know we have evidence from stone age graves where leather cuffs were worn to protect the wrist from bow strings, I think the hunns and the mongols wore similar, but I fail to see the advantage for swordplay.

They just protect the forearms from hits. You can buy the pull on padded bandage type ones for a couple of quid and they are pretty decent for preventing bruising etc.


The leather ones are just more expensive. Those examples are bloody horrible looking though, I'd possibly wear them if my wife wanted a gladiator themed sex night or something.

[Lyceum]

WTF would those things do? I know we have evidence from stone age graves where leather cuffs were worn to protect the wrist from bow strings, I think the hunns and the mongols wore similar, but I fail to see the advantage for swordplay.

They just protect the forearms from hits. You can buy the pull on padded bandage type ones for a couple of quid and they are pretty decent for preventing bruising etc.


The leather ones are just more expensive. Those examples are bloody horrible looking though, I'd possibly wear them if my wife wanted a gladiator themed sex night or something.

Ahahahaha.

Surely you can find these including gloves though? Seem alot better.

[Brewerkel]

Anyone know of any period reference to these? I'd prefer something within the middle ages or renaissance, but from 1950 CE till the beginning of time is ok. Interested in any source- artwork, text etc.

Not as such.... Early fourteenth century Italian effigies show some very elaborate embellishment that suggests painted leather limb harness reinforcement over mail. See Chris Dobson's article "Tough as Old Boot Leather" for more info.

I think Matt E put the article up somewhere on this site. I could be mistaken.

[Nuggan]

Isn't the point of leathers though it provides at least some protection, especially if you can't afford Steel/Plate.

Steel/Plate would also have to be backed with something if you wanted to keep free movement. So Scale or Splint attached to a leather backing would provide the protection whilst also still retaining the movement.

[admin]

I think there is some confusion here.

*Hardened* leather, AKA cuir bouilli, was used instead of iron plate sometimes for a variety of reasons - most usually it seems due to lightness. Cuir boulli is like hard plastic, it is not like leather as we normally think of it. It barely flexes at all.

The problem with cuir boulli however is that it's very hot. It's like wearing plastic plates, it is an insulator. Iron plate on the other hands is a fairly bad insulator and therefore conducts heat away from the body better.

The best documented examples we have are from 15thC tournament armours, where elements were made of cuir bouilli and then sometimes silver-plated or painted to make them look more fancy. Surviving examples of this include grilled great helms used in mace tournaments - example in Vienna. As Kel mentioned there is some evidence that at the beginning of the 14thC some plate defences for the limbs were made out of cuir boulli instead of iron. However, iron plates had been used for 100 years before that on the torso in the coat of plates, which consists of various arrangements of rectangular iron plates riveted to the inside of a cloth or thin leather waist-coat-like garment. In this case the cloth or leather simply provides something for the iron plates to be attached to.

However, contemplate the word 'cuirass', which first appears in the 13thC. Of course 'cuir' is French for leather, and there is some pictoral evidence from the 13thC that before, or at the same time as, the coat of plates became standard there was a different type of breast and backplate defence which was made of two large pieces of hardened leather (cuir boulli), attached at the sides like a later breast and backplate.

Anyway, back to the original question. Were normal leather vambraces worn in the medieval period? Generally I think the answer is no, though there may be some unusual exceptions to the rule, if people really look hard. Archers did wear leather bracers on the left arm sometimes, but the surviving examples and those shown in art only cover the inside of the arm, are usually quite small, and are only ever for the left or bow arm. I am sure there were cuir boulli vambraces worn in the late-13th and early-14thC, as an alternative to iron/steel ones. But why would someone wear plain leather vambraces if they could either wear a mail shirt and/or padded armour and/or plate armour? Plain leather vambraces seem pretty pointless, given the other better options available in medieval Europe.

[Harry]

do you have any pictures or sources about this leather parts of armours?

[admin]

The helmet I mentioned is in the Vienna armoury so you can go and see it - I don't have any pictures with me right now. Try and see the article by Chris Dobson that Kel mentions above (I did not post it on the forum as he said).

[Nuggan]

Ah see! I Assumed we were talking about hardened - (Boiled, waxed or watered) leather straight from the start.

Otherwise what would be the point in talking about the normal stuff, it offers very little in the way of protection, other than what you would get of say leathers now like a leather jacket, useless against a trust or proper cut/slash with a blade and no protection against impact hits.

[admin]

To be fair, I think thick leather would offer quite a bit of protection (think of a tough working boot), but overall would be a more inconvenient thing to wear than simply putting on a sleeved padded aketon or gambeson (which would protect everything else as well).

[bigdummy]

I have some photos of Italian Cuir Bouilli, someone sent me a while back on Myarmoury supposed to be from 1550







I have not been able to determine if this was "real" or parade armor. Another reason for the popularity of Cuir Bouilli which apparently did become fashionable in Italy and some other places in the 16th century, was that it could be pressed into forms with elaborate designs.

The only Cuir Bouilli I know of which was definitively used as armor was lamellar used in Asia. I don't know of any evidence of ordinary leather used as armor, would be interested to hear of any though.

BD

[admin]

BD, my guess would be that this is tournament armour, possible for club combat, like the cuir bouilli great helm.

[Harry]

The helmet I mentioned is in the Vienna armoury so you can go and see it - I don't have any pictures with me right now. Try and see the article by Chris Dobson that Kel mentions above (I did not post it on the forum as he said).

you mean the helmet which is looking like an ancient sphereical diving helmet?

this should be leather?

hhhhhmmmmmm.... ok I will check that out!

[bigdummy]

BD, my guess would be that this is tournament armour, possible for club combat, like the cuir bouilli great helm.

That makes a lot of sense.

And makes me wonder, if such might be useful for us to spar with featherswords etc., it looks pretty functional for that at least...

Food for thought.

BD

[Stevie T]

And makes me wonder, if such might be useful for us to spar with featherswords etc., it looks pretty functional for that at least...

Food for thought.

BD

I would imagine it would be heavier than steel armour and probably more costly to produce these days.

And needs just as much skill to make.